massive foliage removal on shohin trunk chop

[mrcasey]

I'd like to trunk chop this shohin JBP just where my finger points. Would that be too much foliage
to take off at one time? Should I do it at some other time of the year? Finally, do I need to leave an
inch or so nub just in case of die-back?

thanks,
Casey

 

[0soyoung]

No, but what's the rush?

Let it keep growing and the trunk will be thicker, then you can chop it there after a few more seasons. You know that the branch you are pointing at will not move from where it is - right? Trees extend only at the tips (of branches/roots), hence that branch will be exactly where it is, for evermore.

 

[RickMartin]

No, but what's the rush?

Let it keep growing and the trunk will be thicker, then you can chop it there after a few more seasons. You know that the branch you are pointing at will not move from where it is - right? Trees extend only at the tips (of branches/roots), hence that branch will be exactly where it is, for evermore.

Dont think that trunk will get much bigger in the pot its in. I would put it in a colonder

Rick

 

[Adair M]

Agree with both suggestions.

If want to keep the sacrifice going to build trunk, remove all but one leader on the sacrifice. Focus all the growing energy on one growing tip. The trunk thickening will happen mostly in the fall.

 

[Drew]

Agree with both suggestions.

If want to keep the sacrifice going to build trunk, remove all but one leader on the sacrifice. Focus all the growing energy on one growing tip. The trunk thickening will happen mostly in the fall.

Hey Adair, what's the reason for just one growing tip on a sacrifice branch? I would have thought the more foliage on a sacrifice branch the better? I have loads of candles on my JBP pre-bonsai sacrifice branches it looks like my bench has turned 100yrs old HA!

 

[Adair M]

Good question, Drew. I don't have a scientific answer, maybe @Osoyoung can chip in. And if I'm wrong, he'll let me know!

But I'm advising this approach based upon some amazing growth I've observed from some trees in the ground at Boon's.

By eliminating all but one bud, the remaining candle gets all the sugars. I have seen a single candle grow to 3 feet long! In a single season! At Boon's! Boon lives in Hayward, CA, in the Bay Area, and frankly, it's NOT the best place to grow JBP. (Surprising, huh? ). It's cool there. JBP prefer warmer climates. So, they don't grow as well at Boon's as they would other places. In fact, some years with cold summers, we have a problem with the needles being TOO SHORT!

But I digress...

So, if Boon can get trees to grow single 3 foot candles in one year, and they get to be an inch to 1.5 inches in girth in a single year, I'd say, unscientically, that's the way to go.

He grows them in raised beds, terraced, of primarily pumice and recycled bonsai soil. Full sun. Automatic sprinkling system.

 

[TomB]

By eliminating all but one bud, the remaining candle gets all the sugars. .

But aren't sugars created in the foliage through photosynthesis?

 

[Adair M]

But aren't sugars created in the foliage through photosynthesis?

Ok...

I told you I don't know the science behind it!

Whatever...

All the growth gets concentrated on that one stem.

Caveat: make sure the small growth you want to keep down low doesn't get shaded out.

 

[mcpesq817]

If you want to keep it as a shohin and preserve and ultimately cut back to that lower bud, it's a delicate balance of making sure that the top doesn't get too strong that the tree abandons that lower bud. The candle looks pretty strong now but you might have issues down the road. You might want to keep an eye out and over time, thin out the number of branches on the sacrifice.

 

[YukiShiro]

But aren't sugars created in the foliage through photosynthesis?

yes, it goes down to the roots and gets turned into starches. it gets sent back though if a bud is growing to feed it, obviously controlled by plant hormones.
nutrient abundance hormones and nutrient deficiency hormones.

I think if you remove all the lateral shoots and leave one terminal you give the terminal bud the whole potential of the transport system on that branch(xylem and phloem) it obviously takes advantage of this and as a result grows faster

only a guess though, that's why i said I think

check these links out
http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookPLANTHORM.html
this one didn't want to be a link, just copy pasta
http://www.planthormones.info/

whether I am right or wrong about the physiology part does not matter as I have seen this at work on trident maples and JBP
trust Adair it works

best regards
Herman

 

[Dav4]

I suspect another benefit of reducing your sacrifice branch to one terminal bud is that you're keeping the resulting shadow to a minimum which reduces the likelihood of shading the desirable growth low down on the trunk.

 

[ColinFraser]

Wow; the needles are as long as the pot! How do you keep it from tipping over in the slightest breeze?


Seriously though; there's some good advice here. Think about what you're trying to accomplish with the tree, and then select techniques to move forward. To echo previous sentiments, if you want the trunk to be noticably thicker at all, you should not chop it, AND you should put it in a bigger pot. Usually a small pot like that is one of the last stages in development . . .

 

[petegreg]

Agree with both suggestions.

If want to keep the sacrifice going to build trunk, remove all but one leader on the sacrifice. Focus all the growing energy on one growing tip. The trunk thickening will happen mostly in the fall.

@Adair M , what is the best time of year to remove all but one leader on the sacrifice branch, fall all whenever? And what about plucking needles on SB at least in the vicinity of the new trunk (lowest branch actually)?

 

[jeanluc83]

If you want to keep it as a shohin and preserve and ultimately cut back to that lower bud, it's a delicate balance of making sure that the top doesn't get too strong that the tree abandons that lower bud.

I didn't think this was as much of a problem with pines. My understanding was that the tree would keep the low growth around as long as it was getting enough light.

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M , what is the best time of year to remove all but one leader on the sacrifice branch, fall all whenever? And what about plucking needles on SB at least in the vicinity of the new trunk (lowest branch actually)?

Could go ahead and do it now. Would have been better to have done it as soon as I they started growing. Only remove the needles if they're shading the keeper branches down below b

 

[petegreg]

Thank you sir.

 

[YukiShiro]

I didn't think this was as much of a problem with pines. My understanding was that the tree would keep the low growth around as long as it was getting enough light.

Apical dominance makes it a problem if the apical buds vigor far outstretches the weaker lower branches

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Apical dominance makes it a problem if the apical buds vigor far outstretches the weaker lower branches

Right; this is why you don't want a lot of buds on the sacrifice branch. Keep one out there, and many buds in close to the final branches to keep them "relevant" to the tree. In the fall, remove all but a few needles closer to the sacrifice branch's bud, but for now I'd leave them. Here's an old thread with some photos of sacrifice branches on JBP:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/getting-to-a-big-trunk-quickly-jbp.16778/#post-225089

 

[mrcasey]

Yikes. The top bud and the number 1 branch bud are now turning brown. The needles are drooping. I thought that the consensus was that
chopping this thing down to the previously mentioned spot would be safe. I chopped it 2 weeks ago.

 

[0soyoung]

Might you have used a saw and shook the livin' shit out of it in the process?