Maintaining Lower Branches while Growing Sacrifice Branch

[Lumaca]

So I've been meaning to ask this for a while.

I've been trying to thicken the trunks of various seedlings with a sacrifice branch, but I have noticed the lower branches dying even though they are still exposed to plenty of sunlight.

How do you maintain the lower branches, especially on species that are not very good at trunk chopping or backbudding?

Attached are some examples. You can see that even the branch I managed to keep is losing lower leaves. Is it lack of water/nutrient? Because I don't think the other leaves are shading the interior.

 

[Shibui]

This is a real issue when developing trees for bonsai. It is probably as much about auxin and nutrient flows as light. Trees have evolved to become the tallest tree in the forest as quick as possible so all efforts are put into the highest branch to win the rac to the top.
Some species suffer from this more than others so different species may react differently.
There will always be some influence from lack of resources (nutrients, water). Where resources are scarce the tree must make decisions about which areas to prioritize so growing tips will always get preference over lower leaves an shoots.

Some ways to circumvent the tree's natural tendencies:
1. bend the sacrifice branch so its tip is lower than the desired trunk. This usually allows increased vigor in the parts you want while still allowing some increase from the sacrifice branch.
2. semi-regular pruning of the sacrifice branch to divert strength back into the desired section. How often and exactly how to do this depends on the growth characteristics of the tree - bud from bare wood or only from leaves, etc.
3. Don't allow sacrifice branches - takes longer to achieve the desired thickness but results are usually much more refined than fast grown bonsai.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Notwithstanding the above, you need to limit some percentage of the foliage at the top of the tree. Keeping all leaders among the upper branches/stems/twigs clipped back to 4 leaves will force some growth on the lower branch(es) at the expense of less growth on the top and overall. Nothing is without cost. Periodically clipping the lead bud, like every autumn, will contribute to some, but not a lot of growth towards the trunk on the lower branch. Otherwise, it will get very long and still be bare towards the trunk and may die anyway as part of apical dominace.

 

[sorce]

What kinda tree is that?

Where is it kept?

How long has it been like that?

When was the last and last time it's been pruned?

I believe all of the above...but I also believe once a tree is "Bonzai'd",(overworked) it makes it harder, sometimes impossible, to see it's growth habits. I think that may be the case here.

You see how there are basically 3 parts to this tree, the pot, and 2 tops, and they are quite far away from each other.....
I believe the further this seperation of ONE tree gets, the more "Bonzai'd" it is, and the harder it becomes to read, and make it do what you want.

I think it's because the "cross-talk" conversation takes too long, so they "suffer".

Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

How do you maintain the lower branches, especially on species that are not very good at trunk chopping or backbudding?

Try making your sacrifice branch one of the lowest branches. This will both help thicken the trunk, and introduce taper into your design.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Or, wire it loosely to be vertical. It looks longer than the tree is tall. When it is pointed up and is higher than the (proposed) top, it will grow apically dominate.

 

[Lumaca]

This is a real issue when developing trees for bonsai. It is probably as much about auxin and nutrient flows as light. Trees have evolved to become the tallest tree in the forest as quick as possible so all efforts are put into the highest branch to win the rac to the top.
Some species suffer from this more than others so different species may react differently.
There will always be some influence from lack of resources (nutrients, water). Where resources are scarce the tree must make decisions about which areas to prioritize so growing tips will always get preference over lower leaves an shoots.

Some ways to circumvent the tree's natural tendencies:
1. bend the sacrifice branch so its tip is lower than the desired trunk. This usually allows increased vigor in the parts you want while still allowing some increase from the sacrifice branch.
2. semi-regular pruning of the sacrifice branch to divert strength back into the desired section. How often and exactly how to do this depends on the growth characteristics of the tree - bud from bare wood or only from leaves, etc.
3. Don't allow sacrifice branches - takes longer to achieve the desired thickness but results are usually much more refined than fast grown bonsai.

I am reminded that we are trying to "tame" nature! Thank you for the suggestions. I've been trying to prune the sacrifice branches but some trees are stubborn. I've never thought about bending the sacrifice lower though. I'll have to experiment with that! Also, perhaps my pruning is not aggressive enough to force backbudding. Some science required.

Notwithstanding the above, you need to limit some percentage of the foliage at the top of the tree. Keeping all leaders among the upper branches/stems/twigs clipped back to 4 leaves will force some growth on the lower branch(es) at the expense of less growth on the top and overall. Nothing is without cost. Periodically clipping the lead bud, like every autumn, will contribute to some, but not a lot of growth towards the trunk on the lower branch. Otherwise, it will get very long and still be bare towards the trunk and may die anyway as part of apical dominace.

I thought about that, but as you can see the leaves are rather sparse even now at the top, so perhaps I wasn't brave enough in my pruning.

What kinda tree is that?

Where is it kept?

How long has it been like that?

When was the last and last time it's been pruned?

I believe all of the above...but I also believe once a tree is "Bonzai'd",(overworked) it makes it harder, sometimes impossible, to see it's growth habits. I think that may be the case here.

You see how there are basically 3 parts to this tree, the pot, and 2 tops, and they are quite far away from each other.....
I believe the further this seperation of ONE tree gets, the more "Bonzai'd" it is, and the harder it becomes to read, and make it do what you want.

I think it's because the "cross-talk" conversation takes too long, so they "suffer".

Sorce

This is an eucalyptus deglupta, it is kept in my backyard in the open air and has been that way for a year. This is actually the less pruned of the group. I have one that is pruned (chopped at the top actually) more often, but it looks pretty much the same.

I've actually noticed this tendency to abandon lower branches on most of my trees, but most are fine to chop so I don't really mind that.

Try making your sacrifice branch one of the lowest branches. This will both help thicken the trunk, and introduce taper into your design.

Hmmm, an idea for the next tree. Doing it this way will leave a large scar right?

 

[Forsoothe!]

If you sink the pot up to the rim it will grow more. Remove & repot up to a larger size after two, not three growing seasons. Growth the first year will be OK, but growth the second year will be substantial and fill the pot with roots and many will escape through all drain holes. All root growth will be outside the vessel in the third year and only heavy anchor roots will be left inside the pot which is unproductive. So, in the ground for two, not three growing seasons, repot in spring of third year. Trim while in the ground according to this to keep the tree growing the most and within your desired profile and taper.

 

[Shibui]

I'll have to experiment with that! Also, perhaps my pruning is not aggressive enough to force backbudding. Some science required.

Some trees back bud easily. Just looking the wrong way will cause new shoot on the trunk. Others need more encouragement and pruning needs to be quite brutal to convince the tree it needs more buds in case the choppers return. A few species have never learned the trick and will rarely back bud no matter what you do. Knowing each species and how it responds is a key to getting good results. Otherwise take time and try different pruning and different time of year to find out what works.

 

[Lumaca]

Here are a couple more extreme examples. The left one has been chopped multiple times but apparently the tree knows what it wants to be so it keeps growing straight up. I will probably bend the top downwards.

@Forsoothe! Unfortunately I don't have the land to plant it in the ground yet... maybe just a bigger pot...

 

[Forsoothe!]

View attachment 388950View attachment 388951

Here are a couple more extreme examples. The left one has been chopped multiple times but apparently the tree knows what it wants to be so it keeps growing straight up. I will probably bend the top downwards.

@Forsoothe! Unfortunately I don't have the land to plant it in the ground yet... maybe just a bigger pot...

Yes, some trees have tendencies to do what we don't want, but if you don't take the matter in hand and force them to grow more the way we want you will wind up with something nobody wants. It's a choice that comes down to cure or kill. Neither tree as pictured will amount to anything worth having. Period. Your photos are not copy-able so I can't make virts. The one on the left should be chopped back to one branch, and that branch back to one leaf. As it responds with leafing out remove the leading leaf as soon as you can do so without damaging those following in that bunch. Do that with every new expanding bud. The cluster of leaves will be smaller and internodes will be shorter. Sooner or later it will have enough leaves and enough axils to be more compact and you need to maintain the forcing back as a routine maintenance tool.

The tree on the right should be treated the same. Chop back to two branches, and each branch to two sets leaflets, and each set of leaflets back to half the number of sub-leaflets. Cure or kill. In the future, never let a tree have an internode that you find too long. On trees with broader leaves, cut them in half when they are passing the leaf size of internode length that you find acceptable. You make the standards that you will accept. The tree is trainable or is not bonsai.

 

[Lumaca]

So... I went for a big prune on one tree, and tried to bend the other one.

Tree 1: The Prune was rewarded with a few buds on the trunk. Maybe it was not aggressive enough, but we'll see.


Tree 2: I pruned and tried the bend and it snapped rather easily. I guess this is why not many people work with these trees hahaha.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Do you grow these inside? If so this is huge problem.

 

[Lumaca]

No they're outside in full sun, I just put them against a white wall in the garage.

Do you grow these inside? If so this is huge problem.

 

[Lumaca]

Pushing the growth down seems to be working. Hopefully there's still something to be made of this tree hahaha

 

[Cajunrider]

So I've been meaning to ask this for a while.

I've been trying to thicken the trunks of various seedlings with a sacrifice branch, but I have noticed the lower branches dying even though they are still exposed to plenty of sunlight.

How do you maintain the lower branches, especially on species that are not very good at trunk chopping or backbudding?

Attached are some examples. You can see that even the branch I managed to keep is losing lower leaves. Is it lack of water/nutrient? Because I don't think the other leaves are shading the interior.

Now that I've read suggestions by others (all good by the way} and found out that it is Eucalyptus deglupta I have a few comments.
1. This species back bud very easily when chopped. However, there is a maturity level required before you chop a branch or a trunk. If you chop a branch before lignification reaches a certain level, Eucalyptus deglupta will just drop the entire branch and grow a new one instead. This is happening to your top right branch. You chopped the branch and the tree didn't like it. It slowed down the growth of that branch and sprouted a secondary branch right underneath. When that secondary branch gets real healthy, the older branch will die off. I have observed that many times with my Eucalyptus deglupta. If you chop the trunk too early, the tree simply dies.
2. Your tree doesn't look too healthy. Focus on getting it healthy. Let it grow however it likes until you get at least 2" trunk or much more. Then you can chop to your heart content and it will back bud. Then you can select the branches easily. By the way, it likes a lot of water but doesn't like wet feet so keep the soil relatively well drained but water often. Since it is weird that way, you will need to fertilize it more often.
PS: When you feed the tree heavily you should see very fast growth. The leaves will get really big but don't worry, it will reduce readily when the time comes.

 

[Lumaca]

I guess my slacking at fertilizing showed! I've had less time to focus on the trees lately and was hoping the slow relase was gonna cover me for a while but apparently the tree suffered. Thank you for pointing it out.

Also yes! I noticed that they are the thirtiest trees in the collection! I always keep the bottom dish full of water when watering and I found the plant really liking it. I've had them wilt in the sun even after the daily watering and tried the dish with very good results. They are native here and they live in swamps/flooded areas, so I am pretty sure they don't mind the wet feet. Your experience may vary in different zones.

Now that I've read suggestions by others (all good by the way} and found out that it is Eucalyptus deglupta I have a few comments.
1. This species back bud very easily when chopped. However, there is a maturity level required before you chop a branch or a trunk. If you chop a branch before lignification reaches a certain level, Eucalyptus deglupta will just drop the entire branch and grow a new one instead. This is happening to your top right branch. You chopped the branch and the tree didn't like it. It slowed down the growth of that branch and sprouted a secondary branch right underneath. When that secondary branch gets real healthy, the older branch will die off. I have observed that many times with my Eucalyptus deglupta. If you chop the trunk too early, the tree simply dies.
2. Your tree doesn't look too healthy. Focus on getting it healthy. Let it grow however it likes until you get at least 2" trunk or much more. Then you can chop to your heart content and it will back bud. Then you can select the branches easily. By the way, it likes a lot of water but doesn't like wet feet so keep the soil relatively well drained but water often. Since it is weird that way, you will need to fertilize it more often.
PS: When you feed the tree heavily you should see very fast growth. The leaves will get really big but don't worry, it will reduce readily when the time comes.

 

[Lumaca]

Seeking advice for these 1.5 y/o JBP, should I be doing anything to these? Repot to a wider pot? Snip the tiny buds?

 

[leatherback]

Your tree doesn't look too healthy. Focus on getting it healthy. Let it grow however it likes until you get at least 2" trunk or much more. Then you can chop to your heart content and it will back bud.

This is exactly when I was thinking when looking at the pictures. Get fat juicy growth. Full head of leaves. Then chop. Trees need to be fully loaded with energy to backbud and respond to our actions. Weak trees are trying to survive and have no power to respond. (Think about you with a hangover and a night of several times being woken up because the kids had a rough night vss you after a good nights rest!)

 

[Lumaca]

This is exactly when I was thinking when looking at the pictures. Get fat juicy growth. Full head of leaves. Then chop. Trees need to be fully loaded with energy to backbud and respond to our actions. Weak trees are trying to survive and have no power to respond. (Think about you with a hangover and a night of several times being woken up because the kids had a rough night vss you after a good nights rest!)

Yes... I've learned my lesson the hard way by losing a tree hahaha