Looking for advice - Juniper Bonsai

[JasonL]

Hey folks!

First time here and looking for some advice! I've always been fascinated by Bonsai and wanted to give it a shot. I'm very new to this (2yr) and don't know a lot of what I'm doing, lol.

I bought this little Juniper (not sure what type it is) at a local nursery, it was cut and styled a little bit the first time by the nursery but it was never wired or anything like that. My goal was to create a 'cascade' with it because I've always loved the look of cascade bonsai.

I did the initial trim and it's been wired once for shape...it did have another small branch on the trunk lower down (right side opposite cascade), unfortunately it browned and died and I removed it...I wasn't confident turning it into a 'jin'. The foliage was doing nothing, for a very long time, and some even browned at the tips and I thought I was going to lose the whole thing.

The trunk has never gotten any thicker...tree is about 8-9" from earth to top of apex of tree.

The first wire was removed and I've since just let it grow in a window for about the last year or so (it was just set here for these pictures, not it's normal location)...I haven't left it outside as I'm in Eastern Canada and I didn't want to subject it to our winters (sometimes -20C to -30C) or crazy summer humidity (30-40+C).

I'm wondering:

Should be doing another trim and wire for shape at this point?
Should I be starting to create pads on the cascade with some of these branches that have come off the main trunk of the cascade?
Should I just let it grow more until spring before doing anything?

Any advice or thoughts are greatly appreciated, want to make this little guy the best it can be...now that I've managed not to kill it!

THANKS!

 

[Paradox]

Welcome
First off, keeping it inside will kill it unequivocally. It needs to be outside period. That is why the foliage is doing nothing.

It is a Juniperus procumbens nana, a very common nursery juniper.
It's in a pot so while it will grow in a pot, the trunk will be slow to thicken.

For your winters, you need to provide protection. If you live in a house, you can bury/mulch the pot up against the north (preferably) or east side of the house (second best). A garage will be ok if it stays below 40-45 F but you'll need to make sure it doesn't dry out.

You have 2 other problems. The soil it is in looks like potting soil. Did you repot it when you got it or is that the pot and soil it was in? Also it looks like that pot doesn't have drainage holes. Big problem for bonsai especially those that prefer open soil and good drainage like junipers.

Next month, you could wire the trunk and carefully bend it into more of a cascade style. Look up how to bend trunks using raffia so you have the best chance to not break that trunk. Leave everything else as is for now. Juniper store their energy in their foliage for winter.

So put it outside so it can experience weather and prepare for dormancy as it gets colder. Drill some holes in the bottom of that pot and overwinter it as I suggest.

Meanwhile research bonsai care, specifically junipers over the winter and get what you need to repot in mid to late spring the buds start to swell. Choose a proper training pot for a first repot not a bonsai pot which will bee too fast a transition for the roots.

Research and ask more questions if you aren't sure. And please put your location on your profile so we don't have to repeatedly ask you where you are located in the world. Bonsai advice is sometimes dependent on location.

 

[JasonL]

Welcome
First off, keeping it inside will kill it unequivocally. It needs to be outside period. That is why the foliage is doing nothing.

It is a Juniperus procumbens nana, a very common nursery juniper.
It's in a pot so while it will grow in a pot, the trunk will be slow to thicken.

For your winters, you need to provide protection. If you live in a house, you can bury/mulch the pot up against the north (preferably) or east side of the house (second best). A garage will be ok if it stays below 40-45 F but you'll need to make sure it doesn't dry out.

You have 2 other problems. The soil it is in looks like potting soil. Did you repot it when you got it or is that the pot and soil it was in? Also it looks like that pot doesn't have drainage holes. Big problem for bonsai especially those that prefer open soil and good drainage like junipers.

Next month, you could wire the trunk and carefully bend it into more of a cascade style. Look up how to bend trunks using raffia so you have the best chance to not break that trunk. Leave everything else as is for now. Juniper store their energy in their foliage for winter.

So put it outside so it can experience weather and prepare for dormancy as it gets colder. Drill some holes in the bottom of that pot and overwinter it as I suggest.

Meanwhile research bonsai care, specifically junipers over the winter and get what you need to repot in mid to late spring the buds start to swell. Choose a proper training pot for a first repot not a bonsai pot which will bee too fast a transition for the roots.

Research and ask more questions if you aren't sure. And please put your location on your profile so we don't have to repeatedly ask you where you are located in the world. Bonsai advice is sometimes dependent on location.

Hey thanks for the quick response.

- In regards to being inside, it has been inside since day 1 and it is now growing, just slowly...could it live outside Spring-Fall and inside in winter?

- Yes, the soils is potting soil, it's all I had available, where I am most of the bonsai soils are not readily available and if they are they are ridiculously expensive. The pot does have drainage holes (made sure of that) and there are rocks at the bottom of the soil for added drainage. The pot it is in would most likely shatter where I live outside in the winter (outside can frequently get to -15F / -26C).

- Can you clarify what you mean by a 'proper training pot'?

- I'll fix the profile thing thanks for that tip.

 

[Paradox]

Hey thanks for the quick response.

- In regards to being inside, it has been inside since day 1 and it is now growing, just slowly...could it live outside Spring-Fall and inside in winter?

- Yes, the soils is potting soil, it's all I had available, where I am most of the bonsai soils are not readily available and if they are they are ridiculously expensive. The pot does have drainage holes (made sure of that) and there are rocks at the bottom of the soil for added drainage. The pot it is in would most likely shatter where I live outside in the winter (outside can frequently get to -15F / -26C).

- Can you clarify what you mean by a 'proper training pot'?

- I'll fix the profile thing thanks for that tip.

No it won't live outside in spring-fall and inside in winter. It is a temperate tree and it needs dormancy which means a few months of temperature below 40-45 degrees depending on the species. It might last a year or two but will weaken and die over time without proper dormancy. It would be like not allowing you to sleep.

Potting soil will stay too wet for a juniper. Conifers do not like what we call "wet feet" ie soil that does not drain well and stays wet for days which potting soil does.

Yes bonsai soil can be expensive but you only need to repot every 3 to 5 years. There are very few hobbies that aren't expensive these days unfortunately. One way to control costs is to keep only the number of trees you can afford to support.

A proper training pot is a pot that is shaped like a bonsai pot but are typically deeper and wider than what the finished pot would be and are usually plastic. Something like these:

Amazon.com

You just need to get the right size for your tree to start. You don't want to remove more than a third to half of the root mass on that first repot.

Some people also build pots out of wood.
Others use pond baskets of appropriate size but you really need to watch that the soil doesn't dry out too fast with those.

True bonsai pots are high fired when made and should not crack when freezing. Also snow is a great insulator.

If you want to have trees inside in winter, I would suggest trying ficus bonsai that can Iive inside all winter under supplemental lighting

 

[JasonL]

You have all told me that I should have my Junipers outside...my first tree (see above) I've had inside for 3 years with moderate growth, but you all said it would eventually die if I kept it inside. So upon that advice, I recently repotted it (same pot, trimmed roots, modified original soil) and left it outside for the last month...but it doesn't look well, like it's kind of a dull grey/green now instead of a nice rich green like in the picture above.

I've brought it back in the house for now...but I'm scared my oldest tree is now dieing... Have I killed my tree by putting it outside!?? Help!

 

[AshleyMammal]

You have all told me that I should have my Junipers outside...my first tree (see above) I've had inside for 3 years with moderate growth, but you all said it would eventually die if I kept it inside. So upon that advice, I recently repotted it (same pot, trimmed roots, modified original soil) and left it outside for the last month...but it doesn't look well, like it's kind of a dull grey/green now instead of a nice rich green like in the picture above.

I've brought it back in the house for now...but I'm scared my oldest tree is now dieing... Have I killed my tree by putting it outside!?? Help!

It has unequivocally not died from being outside. However, have you done everything @Paradox has said?

Was it repotted into bonsai soil - it may have stayed too wet? Was it given winter protection either well mulched into the ground or brought into an unheated greenhouse/garage etc? Did it dry out at any point?

 

[JasonL]

It has unequivocally not died from being outside. However, have you done everything @Paradox has said?

Was it repotted into bonsai soil - it may have stayed too wet? Was it given winter protection either well mulched into the ground or brought into an unheated greenhouse/garage etc? Did it dry out at any point?

For three years it's been inside in the same pot, in potting soil and grown vibrant and green.

Soil: It was put back into a similar soil that it has always been in, but added in some cactus mix and some clay balls in the bottom (trimmed roots a little).
Protection: It's spring here, it's been mild then cold, then mild then cold off and on for the month it's been outside...temps ranging from -10C to +10C
Moisture/Dry: It has been outside in whatever weather was outside (Rain, Sun, some Snow, etc)...just put in a moisture meter and it's moist approaching wet (hard to control with spring weather in Canada).
Pruning: No pruning in two years, only repotted and trimmed roots when moved outside.

I've brought it back inside to it's usual window...really hope I haven't killed this tree, that will be upsetting. Should I leave it outside? It may be too wet...can I save it?

It's going to rain for the next four days here and the soil is already really wet, not sure how to prevent it not getting more moisture in the soil if it's outside?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Junipers, like most conifers, are slow to show stress. We regularly see junipers on this site that have been dead for some time, but slowly faded away until one day the owner wondered why their juniper went from soft foliage and bright green to harsh prickly foliage and dull grey-green. Even Christmas trees can remain green for weeks after they have been cut down.

Can you share a photo of the entire tree? I fear it may have been killed during repotting, but who knows? I hope I am wrong.

 

[JasonL]

Junipers, like most conifers, are slow to show stress. We regularly see junipers on this site that have been dead for some time, but slowly faded away until one day the owner wondered why their juniper went from soft foliage and bright green to harsh prickly foliage and dull grey-green. Even Christmas trees can remain green for weeks after they have been cut down.

Can you share a photo of the entire tree? I fear it may have been killed during repotting, but who knows? I hope I am wrong.

Here are two pictures of the whole tree...

 

[Orion_metalhead]

It looks ok to me. P. Nana will "bronze" when cold or dormant. But I question the timing of your repot and move outside.

- When did you repot?
- When did you move outside?

The earlier advice given was correct in all aspects. Junipers go outside all year. We repot juniper in mid-late spring and protect from hard freeze afterwards. A slight dip below freezing they can withstand but hard and long freezes after repots can be a killer for any trees.

I think the soil amendments youve used are a good choice to get the heavy potting soil airy and lighter and on the drier side. I use pea gravel, 3/8 crushed stone, perlite etc to ammend heavier soils.

Time will tell. Junipers only seem to die when 1) inside 2) too wet 3) repotted at wrong time.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Oh, and stop moving it in and out and yada-yada. Imagine someone picking you up and down and moving you from the comfy nook youve made in your bed in the morning. You WANT to stay in that nook!

 

[JasonL]

It looks ok to me. P. Nana will "bronze" when cold or dormant. But I question the timing of your repot and move outside.

- When did you repot?
- When did you move outside?

The earlier advice given was correct in all aspects. Junipers go outside all year. We repot juniper in mid-late spring and protect from hard freeze afterwards. A slight dip below freezing they can withstand but hard and long freezes after repots can be a killer for any trees.

I think the soil amendments youve used are a good choice to get the heavy potting soil airy and lighter and on the drier side. I use pea gravel, 3/8 crushed stone, perlite etc to ammend heavier soils.

Time will tell. Junipers only seem to die when 1) inside 2) too wet 3) repotted at wrong time.

Repotted mid-late March...it was getting warmer here and seemed like the time, but the weather has been all over the place for the last month.
Moved outside at the same time.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Your initial photo had me worried, but the photo of the entire tree doesn't look bad at all. Just be careful to leave it alone for a while. Junipers don't like to be over-worked. Since you repotted, make sure it is fully recovered before you trim/prune it... which may not even be for an entire year.

Also watch fertilizer use - and that includes if you use any organic soil in your soil mix, make sure you know what it is and what's in it. If you buy "potting soil" "raised bed soil" "garden soil" "cactus mix" or anything similar, I challenge you to find one that doesn't contain compost or amendments.

 

[JasonL]

Your initial photo had me worried, but the photo of the entire tree doesn't look bad at all. Just be careful to leave it alone for a while. Junipers don't like to be over-worked. If you decide to repot, make sure it is fully recovered before you trim/prune it... which may not even be for an entire year.

Also watch fertilizer use - and that includes if you use any organic soil in your soil mix, make sure you know what it is and what's in it. If you buy "potting soil" "raised bed soil" "garden soil" "cactus mix" or anything similar, I challenge you to find one that doesn't contain compost or amendments.

View attachment 591884

Thanks...will be really disappointed if I lose this tree, it just got soooo dull compared to being inside...but will keep trying!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thanks...will be really disappointed if I lose this tree, it just got soooo dull compared to being inside...but will keep trying!

Junipers do well in sun - the more sun the better. You just have to be careful when you repot, particularly if you trim the roots. In the short term, the tree will not have the ability to take up water as quickly, and if the air is dry and the sun is hot, the tree may dry out. Not because it doesn't like or want the sun, but because the roots are compromised. The solution is to provide it with a little sun protection immediately after a repot - depending where you live, humidity levels, and temperature. You can place it in a location where it gets morning sun and afternoon shade, or place it below a larger tree, etc. I am constantly moving trees around depending on the care that I am giving them.

Watch that you don't overwater. Sometimes if people repot a tree and see signs that the tree is experiencing water stress, they panic and start watering numerous times per day. This can cause root problems with tender young roots. Water only when the soil is almost dry - but still moist.

 

[JasonL]

Junipers do well in sun - the more sun the better. You just have to be careful when you repot, particularly if you trim the roots. In the short term, the tree will not have the ability to take up water as quickly, and if the air is dry and the sun is hot, the tree may dry out. Not because it doesn't like or want the sun, but because the roots are compromised. The solution is to provide it with a little sun protection immediately after a repot - depending where you live, humidity levels, and temperature. You can place it in a location where it gets morning sun and afternoon shade, or place it below a larger tree, etc. I am constantly moving trees around depending on the care that I am giving them.

Watch that you don't overwater. Sometimes if people repot a tree and see signs that the tree is experiencing water stress, they panic and start watering numerous times per day. This can cause root problems with tender young roots. Water only when the soil is almost dry - but still moist.

Question, how do you control 'over watering' if the tree is outside and it rains every day for a week (which it has been here, extremely wet spring, minimal sun).

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Question, how do you control 'over watering' if the tree is outside and it rains every day for a week (which it has been here, extremely wet spring, minimal sun).

This is why we use inorganic free draining soils in bonsai pots.

 

[JasonL]

Question...would this be a good Juniper Bonsai soil? I'm determined to get my two junipers into the right soil.

https://amzn.to/3Rfagof

Appreciate everyone's help.

 

[coachspinks]

Question...would this be a good Juniper Bonsai soil? I'm determined to get my two junipers into the right soil.

https://amzn.to/3Rfagof

Appreciate everyone's help.

Too much organic material in it. Google "inorganic bonsai mix." A number of sellers will pop up. Most major bonsai sellers carry a version. As far as I know, Amazon does not currently carry any true inorganic mix. They do carry a mix with some bark. Seeing where you are located, that would concern me some.

 

[JasonL]

So...an update to this...after several weeks outside this spring these trees were overly wet (I've ordered some new soil).

As I said in my previous posts they were either starting to look really dull, or they were slightly brown at the tips.

What I've been doing...the table you see them on in the photos, I have been placing them under it when it rains in or sitting them out when the sun is out to let the soil they are currently in dry out. I'm been checking with a moisture meter, and after about a week or so of doing this they are almost dry (and it's going to rain for the next 4 days).

One (the cascade looking one) is still very 'dull' in color (compared to when it was inside for the last 3 years) but the browning seems to have slowed.

The other (in the lower round pot) all the tips are brown but I'm not sure if this is a sign of it dying or what?

Any further advice/thoughts is helpful...