Lonicera nitida, trunk thickening

[JonW]

How long do these take to develop a decent caliper in a large nursery pot? I have one with a maybe one inch base that immediately splits into multiple trunks. I'm deciding between giving it to family for landscaping at their new house versus separating out that trunk and growing it out for a few years. I have more plants than space, and might sell a Corkbark chinese elm or Japanese maple if I decide to invest time into this plant. All three plants are starters.

 

[Shibui]

I grew some and let the roots escape out the bottom of the pots. Over a year they thickened way more than others, even in larger pots. Lonicera will produce lots of buds from bare wood after pruning so you can be ruthless in cutting back. 1" base sound quite good for this species but I'm not sure how thick they might be able to get. I'm concentrating on shohin and small bonsai with mine because the small leaves and nice bark suit that.

 

[leatherback]

THey take a long time to fatten up. I used to have one of about 4inch diameter. So they do get thick. But.. Think decades.

 

[JonW]

THey take a long time to fatten up. I used to have one of about 4inch diameter. So they do get thick. But.. Think decades.

Ok. I looked for a couple years to find one, they just aren't popular here I guess. So I took a shot at nursery stock because I've seen people post thicker trunks from 5 gallon pots. I'm thinking I've put too much time into material like this, probably not worth it. I'm only looking to it to be a reasonable shohin, but I think I might be able to find something not rewarding to work on

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@JonW
You mentioned you have to choose, that if you keep the Lonicera nitida, you need to sell either a cork bark Chinese elm or a Japanese maple. Well, if I had to choose, the cork bark elm will develop MUCH quicker than the Lonicera. The elm will trunk up more quickly and develop better ramification more quickly than the honeysuckle. The blooms of honeysuckle are attractive, but it otherwise is a difficult species for bonsai.

If flowers are your motivation, cotoneaster is excellent for shohin and will develop flowers and fruit while quite small. Pyracantha, flowering crab apples - Malus sp & hybrids, even azalea all develop as bonsai more quickly than honeysuckle. The issue is honeysuckle grows fast, but wood is weak, ramification is lost easily. Rampant growth makes it difficult to keep on top of. Twigs die back over winter. Foliage tends to come from clumps of buds all at one node, rather than at every node. And honeysuckle does not bloom easily on very small, shohin size plants. These is the reasons it is not seen often as bonsai. Honeysuckle can make a good bonsai, but generally it is a difficult species to get to the point of being a good bonsai. Same effort put into a cotoneaster, or azalea or a flowering crab apple will pay off much more quickly and at a higher level for blooming bonsai, and for non blooming bonsai, the elm will pay off much quicker.

The Japanese maple is not the easiest of trees to create bonsai with, but once you learn to deal with them, it is well worth the effort.

 

[JonW]

@JonW
You mentioned you have to choose, that if you keep the Lonicera nitida, you need to sell either a cork bark Chinese elm or a Japanese maple. Well, if I had to choose, the cork bark elm will develop MUCH quicker than the Lonicera. The elm will trunk up more quickly and develop better ramification more quickly than the honeysuckle. The blooms of honeysuckle are attractive, but it otherwise is a difficult species for bonsai.

If flowers are your motivation, cotoneaster is excellent for shohin and will develop flowers and fruit while quite small. Pyracantha, flowering crab apples - Malus sp & hybrids, even azalea all develop as bonsai more quickly than honeysuckle. The issue is honeysuckle grows fast, but wood is weak, ramification is lost easily. Rampant growth makes it difficult to keep on top of. Twigs die back over winter. Foliage tends to come from clumps of buds all at one node, rather than at every node. And honeysuckle does not bloom easily on very small, shohin size plants. These is the reasons it is not seen often as bonsai. Honeysuckle can make a good bonsai, but generally it is a difficult species to get to the point of being a good bonsai. Same effort put into a cotoneaster, or azalea or a flowering crab apple will pay off much more quickly and at a higher level for blooming bonsai, and for non blooming bonsai, the elm will pay off much quicker.

The Japanese maple is not the easiest of trees to create bonsai with, but once you learn to deal with them, it is well worth the effort.

Wow thanks so much for the thoughtful response. I'm looking for a small leaf cotoneaster up to $250. I have a cranberry cotoneaster, but want a smaller one. I ended up trimming and potting the honeysuckle but I might not keep it.

I have several maples (Japanese and trident) and a nice seiju elm. Since I have the seiju, I want sure if I would keep the cork bark. I also just got a nice chojubai red quince, maybe two inch nebari.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Wow thanks so much for the thoughtful response. I'm looking for a small leaf cotoneaster up to $250. I have a cranberry cotoneaster, but want a smaller one. I ended up trimming and potting the honeysuckle but I might not keep it.

I have several maples (Japanese and trident) and a nice seiju elm. Since I have the seiju, I want sure if I would keep the cork bark. I also just got a nice chojubai red quince, maybe two inch nebari.

Small leaf cotoneaster is not a specific species, most of the cotoneaster species have smaller than one inch leaves. A few species have very small leaves. Cotoneaster thymifolius has particularly small leaves. Horticulture is nearly identical for all species of cotoneaster. Just shop around. Cotoneaster is one of the trees (shrubs actually) that you can buy at a landscape nursery and quickly develop a very acceptable shohin bonsai from scratch yourself. A $25 budget is quite acceptable for nursery stock cotoneasters. It should not be hard to find a "finished bonsai" cotoneaster, and there your budget of $250 is about right, but shop around. Take your time. and try to see the tree in person before purchasing.

If you have a nice 'Seiju' elm, you are in good shape. The cork bark elm is similar enough that I can see letting it go. A 'Chojubai' with a 2 inch diameter trunk is indeed a nice find. The maples of course are emblematic of deciduous bonsai, no collection is complete without a Japanese maple.

You have a nice collection

 

[JonW]

Small leaf cotoneaster is not a specific species, most of the cotoneaster species have smaller than one inch leaves. A few species have very small leaves. Cotoneaster thymifolius has particularly small leaves. Horticulture is nearly identical for all species of cotoneaster. Just shop around. Cotoneaster is one of the trees (shrubs actually) that you can buy at a landscape nursery and quickly develop a very acceptable shohin bonsai from scratch yourself. A $25 budget is quite acceptable for nursery stock cotoneasters. It should not be hard to find a "finished bonsai" cotoneaster, and there your budget of $250 is about right, but shop around. Take your time. and try to see the tree in person before purchasing.

If you have a nice 'Seiju' elm, you are in good shape. The cork bark elm is similar enough that I can see letting it go. A 'Chojubai' with a 2 inch diameter trunk is indeed a nice find. The maples of course are emblematic of deciduous bonsai, no collection is complete without a Japanese maple.

You have a nice collection

Thanks Leo.

I'm using the term "small leaf" to mean smaller than Cranberry / Apiculatus, or Dammeri species (not a specific cultivar). I'm interested in microphylla including thyme leaf (but the branches seem very straight compared to some other varieties with weeping/arching branches), or cooperi, as well as something like congestus (which I think might be another name of microphylla), or cultivars like streib's findling, emerald spray... The Cranberry Cotoneaster that I have was a nursery stock (probably about $25) with a 1-inch trunk (I haven't completely dug out the nebari yet, only removed extraneous branches. I'll prune probably after leaf drop and repot in spring). I've been searching for a specimen for a while with no luck - hoping Brent has one in my price range next year, but also found a nursery a few hours south that has some that will be ready for sale in spring. If all else fails, I'll get a nursery stock one, but it will probably have to be a facebook auction or site-unseen purchase because my local nurseries only seem to carry Cranberry, Dammeri and Horizontalis.

The chojubai has a 2+ inch nebari (some surface roots are probably too long but actually extend almost the entire width of the 5-inch pot), but probably a 1-inch trunk.

 

[JonW]

Chojubai:

 

[Jo53ph]

Wow nice tree . I read you have maples as well is the chojubai or any of the maples for sale ?

 

[JonW]

Wow nice tree . I read you have maples as well is the chojubai or any of the maples for sale ?

Thanks!

I sold the maple I was referring to above (a Kiyohime), and I don't have any for sale currently, but there are a few I might sell. The picture below are Kotohime cuttings I took in the fall. 4 of them rooted and 3 of them leafed out (the last one has buds that have been slowly swelling for weeks). The one on the right is about 3-inches taller than when I took this picture (3 weeks ago). I'm deciding between selling them, using them for root graft or planting one in my yard (or a combination of those options).

I might also sell a Heritage Farms Dwarf Green Maple, but I'll probably keep it for a year or two.