Longest a chopped trident has taken to bud out?

[SeanS]

I chopped a trident at the beginning of January (mid summer for us), 4 weeks on there's still zero movement. I'm battling to seal the chop and stop it from bleeding, there's a steady stream of tree juice running down the side of the trunk from under the seal. I've used plumbers putty which I've had to reapply 3 times now in an attempt to get a better seal, but the juices just keep lifting it off.

There are visible nodes and scars where branches have been removed previously on the trunk, so I don't think I've chopped too low. The bark is very rough and crackled in spots, it seems much rougher and thicker than what I've expect for a trident this age. I've scrubbed the trunk with a tooth brush and water in an attempt to clean it and make sure it's getting air and light. I've also lifted a small chunk of the outer bark off the trunk, in some spots it seems to want to come off quite easily. Underneath is an orangey/brown fresh bark.

What are my chances it may still bud out? What's the longest a trident has taken to show signs of budding out for you? Our autumn should start around April/May.

Lets not turn this into a "you should have done this instead" thread, the deed is done and I'm looking for some insight into other's experiences.

Picture of the tree directly post chop on Jan 9th.

 

[rodeolthr]

Is it possible that you cut it below the point of any dormant buds?

 

[Owen Reich]

6 months longest I’ve waited. Best to cut on new moon or close to it. Sap flow highest around full moon. If you prevent bleed out, it should be fine. That one should bud out in about 2 months. Fungal infections common to new growth in summer, so I’d watch for that

 

[Owen Reich]

Best to reduce root system some as right now ratio of roots to shoots off.

 

[_#1_]

Best to reduce root system some as right now ratio of roots to shoots off.

There are no shoots...

 

[SeanS]

Is it possible that you cut it below the point of any dormant buds?

It appears to have nodes and scars from previous branches/shoots between the chop and the roots

 

[SeanS]

Best to reduce root system some as right now ratio of roots to shoots off.

Middle of summer here now, so working the roots probably isn’t a good idea

 

[Owen Reich]

Looking at the bag of soil attached to that small of a trunk, the amount of conductive tissue feeding no transpiring foliage or moving water basically anywhere, it’s best to balance that, you could reduce size of container and not cut too much off. That current set up when watered will not dry out quickly. Have done this exact process is mid summer with trident and Japanese maples in 2007 when I ran a wholesale nursery in Tennessee.
Wait until the fall root flush if you like, or just before. That is a good time. For now, you’re dealing with excessive sap flow and I’m suggesting a solution. Happy chopping!

 

[Owen Reich]

There are no shoots...

That’s my point.

 

[SeanS]

Looking at the bag of soil attached to that small of a trunk, the amount of conductive tissue feeding no transpiring foliage or moving water basically anywhere, it’s best to balance that, you could reduce size of container and not cut too much off. That current set up when watered will not dry out quickly. Have done this exact process is mid summer with trident and Japanese maples in 2007 when I ran a wholesale nursery in Tennessee.
Wait until the fall root flush if you like, or just before. That is a good time. For now, you’re dealing with excessive sap flow and I’m suggesting a solution. Happy chopping!

Owen I’m interested in this solution, sorry if I came across in a negative way. This is the first time I’ve heard of reducing roots in any other time but spring reporting, but it makes sense.
Are you saying to wait until fall or do it now?
And how much of a reduction in terms of the current growing container (bag) size?
I’ve got nothing to lose and just want to try stop the bleeding and get that sap going to the right places

 

[leatherback]

Gutsy move.

Contrary to what some people think, cut past will NOT stop water from running from a wound. The aim is to stop it from drying out so fast that the wood cracks and reducing the amound the cambium dries (die-back). So stop fighting sap. The sap is a good sign: The roots are pushin water into the system. The system is not plugged so the water runs out.

You have chopped low, in an area where the tree has no active buds. So it needs to activate some dormant budd which is sitting in old bark. It needs to start growing and swelling and push through. That takes time. I am happy if after regular defoliation I get buds opening after 2 weeks. I am not concerned at all that at 4 weeks you have no buds.

Keep it watered. I would move it into dappled shade untill buds are visible. Wait. Do tell us in April what a nice bush of green you have.

 

[SeanS]

@leatherback I have appointed you my honorary bonsai oracle and will await your prophecy coming true. It is currently in dappled sun and is in full shade after 1pm.

I think it’s quite a nice trunk, 3” at the soil line

 

[Shibui]

Sorry to be pessimistic but any maples that have bled a lot here have all died. Now if I get excessive bleeding after pruning I immediately root prune and bleeding stops immediately but I have not tried that in mid summer as I have not experienced bleeding at that time of year. Spring bleeding is far more of a problem here.

Some of our experienced growers have trialed repotting maples in late summer and have reported no problems.
I have done some experimental work root pruning tridents during late spring and early summer. With extreme root reduction I often get defoliation but all of them have soon budded and grown again. note this work has all been on smaller, dispensable trees and results could be different with mature trees but I would be comfortable doing light root prune on a trident with no leaves in late summer.

Also agree that a couple of months would be OK for new shoots on older wood.

 

[sorce]

Since you didn't cut back to a branch already there.....sorry...
And it doesn't seem nodey there....
It could be just converting tissue to make buds.

I think the sap is a good sign too. If you think about what it needs to do, it just needs to live until it can grow again, it's living.....

Might not be till Spring that it wakes up.

Nice base.

Sorce

 

[Owen Reich]

@SeanS, No offense taken, just being clear. Sap loss can be prevented with cut paste in my experience. Now, if you had a ton of sap that overwhelmed seal, definitely possible. I used cut paste after bare rooting and chopping maples (in late July) so less sap or imbalance between roots and shoots. I used the imported grey Japanese cut paste liberally. I saw a bubble of sap the size of a golf ball swell when I did above mentioned 2007 experiment on a batch of trees. Sap receded back into plant and then tree eventually budded.

Sean, do what you like with tree in terms of repot amount and timing. I live in northern hemisphere and have never seen tree in person or cared for it. The feedback from the folks here should be looked into and checked by you. Easy to type something when a given persons experience is a single test subject and it died for example. Agreed with @leatherback that sap flowing is a good thing.

My experience is basically you have a fire hydrant (roots) connected to a water balloon (greatly reduced top with hole in it) .

Bonsai is balance and imbalance of plants’ physiology with intent.

 

[leatherback]

Bonsai is balance and imbalance of plants’ physiology with intent.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I have had tridents stay dormant an entire season. My opinion: best case scenario is stays dormant until next growth season. Here in the USA, mid-summer is one of the worst times for a chop like that.

 

[SeanS]

I have had tridents stay dormant an entire season. My opinion: best case scenario is stays dormant until next growth season. Here in the USA, mid-summer is one of the worst times for a chop like that.

And probably the same for here in South Africa... Let’s use this as a possible learning experience whichever way this tree goes.

 

[Don Blackmond]

And probably the same for here in South Africa... Let’s use this as a possible learning experience whichever way this tree goes.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
You can either push it to grow, or keep food and water to the minimum and hope it stays dormant. If it grows, then be sure you get it growing strong enough to fully cycle, harden off and go dormant before winter.

 

[SeanS]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
You can either push it to grow, or keep food and water to the minimum and hope it stays dormant. If it grows, then be sure you get it growing strong enough to fully cycle, harden off and go dormant before winter.

Yes that’s my concern, it only has limited time before it’s meant to go dormant.

I’ll update if anything starts happening