Little Jim Picea abies Ultra Dwarf

[Japonicus]

Hello on this Labor Day weekend.
I recently purchased this Piece abies Little Gem, a dwarf variety of the Birds Nest which
I think counts it as an ultra dwarf with <1"/yr growth rate. About 1/4 that of the Birds Nest, give or take.
I went looking for a gold tipped Juniper of sorts to go with my golden Hinoki to no avail. Instead I found these
which were of more interest, than the Mugos which were at nearly half the price of the Little Gems.

The needles are soft enough, unlike some Blue Spruce, and the branches quite supple, but it is insanely dense, that the top can support
quite a bit of weight, given the size of everything. Remarkable.

There seems to be a short single trunk about 5/8 to 3/4" diameter, but will be able to tell more once I begin to open the foliage some.







In this picture ^ I'm just about to turn the pot over using what force I am to attempt to open up the foliage. As you can see, it doesn't open much, whereas a Juniper would splay wide open
or most other Spruce for that matter I imagine.


This should put into perspective how short the needles are for anyone not familiar with Little Gem. I certainly was not familiar with them. Still am not.
So most of the complaints I have with this species, is why I bothered to purchase it really.

I have been teetering on returning it after discovering the growth rate (no smart phone for me).
The length of the new shoots should've been a good clue to the growth rate, but I ignored that I guess, and was taken with
the clever tiny little needles with so many buds about, that I had to bring one home, $36 in the hole.
Anyway, after seeing a few examples on here, particularly the one @wireme entered into competition, I decided to keep it.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I have a couple I bought this summer, in the early stages. Bill Valavanis has a really nice one.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Little Gem originated as a witch’s broom that developed in the late 1950s on a specimen of Picea abies ‘Nidiformis’, the Bird’s Nest spruce, which itself was a witch’s broom that had been found on a Norway spruce. They can take full sun but be careful as on hot summer days the mid-day sun can burn holes in the top of the canopy so find a shady spot for that time of day.

 

[wireme]

Here’s my other one. Bought it two years ago and cut off enough to be able to see a trunk line. Couldn’t see a way to style it at the time so put it on the bench and pretty much haven’t looked at it since. You inspired me to check it out so I just hit it again with the pruners. Here’s the before and after. Perhaps if I keep doing that every couple years something to work with will eventually emerge?! Slow growers yes but with the bud density they fill out fast anyways. I’m gonna keep looking for this cultivar, feel’em up in the nursery to look for a trunk if I see them there...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Japonicus - nice find. With slow growing cultivars, plan to slowly subtract to achieve your finished tree. If you cut too much and your plan is for the tree is to ''grow out this branch'' and ''fill in here'' you may end up waiting forever. So remove a little at a time. This holds true for any ''miniature'' or ''dwarf'' that grows less than 1 inch a year. Yes, the dense budding does help fill back in, but don't over do the pruning.

My temptation would be repot first, in spring, finding the nebari and the first couple inches of the trunk. Get a feel for what you have down there. Get it into good media. Then a year or so after repotting into good bonsai media, then begin the step wise reduction. But that is me. You can prune out now, repot later, or what ever you want.

 

[Japonicus]

@Japonicus - nice find. With slow growing cultivars, plan to slowly subtract to achieve your finished tree. If you cut too much and your plan is for the tree is to ''grow out this branch'' and ''fill in here'' you may end up waiting forever. So remove a little at a time. This holds true for any ''miniature'' or ''dwarf'' that grows less than 1 inch a year. Yes, the dense budding does help fill back in, but don't over do the pruning.

My temptation would be repot first, in spring, finding the nebari and the first couple inches of the trunk. Get a feel for what you have down there. Get it into good media. Then a year or so after repotting into good bonsai media, then begin the step wise reduction. But that is me. You can prune out now, repot later, or what ever you want.

Well, I think it was @Walter Pall says this is the best time of year to pot up Spruce with the best success rate, and I believe EU has same season timing we do.
BTW Walter, I have a picture of my father at the original Vitalis Nacht in Hersfeld captioned - It was a here the first leading knight tried to go over the wall but was shot.
He was a photographer for the Cotton Baler newspaper (amongst many other things) I believe it was, in the mid 40's.
Anyway, being how I will be away a couple weeks and a family member watering my plants this Fall, I am not going to work the roots, unless...unless I were
to heel it into the ground, in a pot, but also leaning towards ...

...On a side note I've been a bit skeptical of some of the guys here saying nursery soil is just fine and good for developing... Skepticism is waning.

So I may take a bit of both approaches with this one, and hopefully it does not bite me, to
pot it up now in better media, getting more next time, and conducting Spring pruning after new growth hardens off.
See posts #10 and 12 by WP >
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/european-spruce-88.35186/
Now I think I'm backwards on the Spring prune for the current stage, and what I need to do next though.
I need to prune back a few years, not just refinement Spring pruning, so could use a bit of direction in timing here.
I don't mind to hold off on potting it up or anything for that matter, however I did remove the root ball from the plastic pot
and put it back in. No abundance of roots, their media (mostly bark) appears to have been potted up rather loosely, in the last year
or two.
Thanks for chiming in Leo, and do please post up any pics and experience you've learned with little Gems.

 

[Japonicus]

Little Gem originated as a witch’s broom that developed in the late 1950s on a specimen of Picea abies ‘Nidiformis’, the Bird’s Nest spruce, which itself was a witch’s broom that had been found on a Norway spruce. They can take full sun but be careful as on hot summer days the mid-day sun can burn holes in the top of the canopy so find a shady spot for that time of day.

Yes I quoted that too in just wing its thread from http://conifersociety.org/conifers/conifer/picea/abies/little-gem/
Now whether mine is a cutting, layer or graft, is yet to be seen. I'm hoping not grafted, and actually doubt it.

 

[wireme]

Well, I think it was @Walter Pall says this is the best time of year to pot up Spruce with the best success rate, and I believe EU has same season timing we do.
BTW Walter, I have a picture of my father at the original Vitalis Nacht in Hersfeld captioned - It was a here the first leading knight tried to go over the wall but was shot.
He was a photographer for the Cotton Baler newspaper (amongst many other things) I believe it was, in the mid 40's.
Anyway, being how I will be away a couple weeks and a family member watering my plants this Fall, I am not going to work the roots, unless...unless I were
to heel it into the ground, in a pot, but also leaning towards ...

So I may take a bit of both approaches with this one, and hopefully it does not bite me, to
pot it up now in better media, getting more next time, and conducting Spring pruning after new growth hardens off.
See posts #10 and 12 by WP >
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/european-spruce-88.35186/
Now I think I'm backwards on the Spring prune for the current stage, and what I need to do next though.
I need to prune back a few years, not just refinement Spring pruning, so could use a bit of direction in timing here.
I don't mind to hold off on potting it up or anything for that matter, however I did remove the root ball from the plastic pot
and put it back in. No abundance of roots, their media (mostly bark) appears to have been potted up rather loosely, in the last year
or two.
Thanks for chiming in Leo, and do please post up any pics and experience you've learned with little Gems.

One of mine is still in the original nursery can, the other one spent three seasons like that before repotting. Both remain healthy. So I think I would recommend pruning now and just leaving it in the can for next season. I’d just get in there and try to find branches that are obviously not usable and remove them entirely leaving stubs. There’s gonna be a million to chose from in there. Take them one at a time until eventually you can begin the see what you have to work with. You could have it out of the container while doing this so that you can pull soil off the surface to see the base as well in case that effects pruning choices. How much gets pruned kind of depends on whether or not you see a clear design to chase or not but safest is to take just enough off to be able to see and plan. You probably could do both that and repot when you think timing is good but I doubt another season in nursery soil will hurt. I’m general I actually prefer to repot before getting carried away with styling and pruning choices but these things are just so dense and hard to see into. That’s why I like to do some selective branch removal as first step.

 

[Japonicus]

One of mine is still in the original nursery can, the other one spent three seasons like that before repotting. Both remain healthy. So I think I would recommend pruning now and just leaving it in the can for next season. I’d just get in there and try to find branches that are obviously not usable and remove them entirely leaving stubs. There’s gonna be a million to chose from in there. Take them one at a time until eventually you can begin the see what you have to work with. You could have it out of the container while doing this so that you can pull soil off the surface to see the base as well in case that effects pruning choices. How much gets pruned kind of depends on whether or not you see a clear design to chase or not but safest is to take just enough off to be able to see and plan. You probably could do both that and repot when you think timing is good but I doubt another season in nursery soil will hurt. I’m general I actually prefer to repot before getting carried away with styling and pruning choices but these things are just so dense and hard to see into. That’s why I like to do some selective branch removal as first step.

Sounds like a good plan. I think I can make that fit in hand also with @Leo in N E Illinois cautioning to reduce slowly.
Good thought on the multitude of back buds filling in too Leo, but I'm sure the abundance of them are in the last few years of growth
which makes refinement a piece of cake...I would think, compared to a more hard prune.
The roots won't compact the soil for some time. This would be awesome in a raised grow bed after initial styling.

 

[Japonicus]

Was fixin' to repot...now what?

@Japonicus
...My temptation would be repot first, in spring, finding the nebari and the first couple inches of the trunk. Get a feel for what you have down there. Get it into good media. Then a year or so after repotting into good bonsai media, then begin the step wise reduction. But that is me. You can prune out now, repot later, or what ever you want.

I just went out to check on this for repotting this Spring...
...CHANGED MY MIND!

Ok, so this is my 2nd Winter with this Little Gem.
I do not recall any such issues last year as I'm having now, with these brown tips.
No current mites (none I've ever seen either), and this is limited to only the outer or apical buds.
Due to this lack of vitality would you skip this year? I don't see why the next lateral buds would not open
when new growth starts. Bonsai4me suggests potting up prior to new growth, so I was examining it for the task.

 

[Japonicus]

Forgot to attach the pics 1st.
EDIT: It's been in the "cave" for the Winter, and very very low light.
I don't think that has anything to do with this. Never been an issue before.
Possible it got a handful of insecticide from the exterminator. No idea.

 

[Hartinez]

Forgot to attach the pics 1st.
EDIT: It's been in the "cave" for the Winter, and very very low light.
I don't think that has anything to do with this. Never been an issue before.
Possible it got a handful of insecticide from the exterminator. No idea.
View attachment 288234View attachment 288235View attachment 288237View attachment 288238

May be just me and I certainly don’t claim to be a horticultural expert, but those buds look plump and healthy and the rest of the tree looks great. I’d be tempted to repot and thin out just a bit to get some light penetration to the interior portions of the tree. Or at the very least, repot and trim off the brown tips to a healthy bud and dispose of the brown tips in the dumpster. I’ve seen these at a Santa Fe nursery and I’d love to give one a go. Hope it works out for you!

 

[BonjourBonsai]

May be just me and I certainly don’t claim to be a horticultural expert, but those buds look plump and healthy and the rest of the tree looks great. I’d be tempted to repot and thin out just a bit to get some light penetration to the interior portions of the tree. Or at the very least, repot and trim off the brown tips to a healthy bud and dispose of the brown tips in the dumpster. I’ve seen these at a Santa Fe nursery and I’d love to give one a go. Hope it works out for you!

I agree with @Hartinez. You've got a great trunk and the needles look like they are ready to go. I would thin selectively if spring has sprung in your part of the world. Good luck!

 

[Japonicus]

May be just me and I certainly don’t claim to be a horticultural expert, but those buds look plump and healthy and the rest of the tree looks great. I’d be tempted to repot and thin out just a bit to get some light penetration to the interior portions of the tree. Or at the very least, repot and trim off the brown tips to a healthy bud and dispose of the brown tips in the dumpster. I’ve seen these at a Santa Fe nursery and I’d love to give one a go. Hope it works out for you!

Hey thanks for the input. Nor am I an expert on such, I am however following Leos cue to work slowly on this one.
Compare these pics...Sept. 2018 and now. I did hardly anything to it last year.
I know it doesn't look like it, but I have edited the canopy some to begin letting the light and air in.
It balked at the sheers displaying an ugly brown crown. Now if I could only find when I did that
I should have posted it in this thread, now I have to try and find pictures on the memory cards in my camera.
There's a good chance I pruned at the optimum time, just after the 1st post here 9/2018.

After the shoots extend is a good time to prune Picea to promote a 2nd flush (but these buds are so prolific)
and late Summer-early Fall is good for hard pruning and wiring.
I agree I need to thin and maybe am going about it too slowly.

 

[Japonicus]

I agree with @Hartinez. You've got a great trunk and the needles look like they are ready to go. I would thin selectively if spring has sprung in your part of the world. Good luck!

Well Spring is a springing' but rather limited. Daffodils, Forsythia, white Magnolia, and Bradford pear trees and such are getting underway.
I wouldn't pot my pines up, but I would would pot JM, Malus, or this little guy based on the weather.

Was just worried with the tip die back. I've intentionally not thinned any more, both in keeping with the
go slow approach, and also the amount of foliage available going into a potting year.
Hopefully when I do thin more, I'll be able to appoint branches towards a design.
Find branches that I can gain access to by thinning, to wire. Difficult to picture an end design, but
Savanna trees come to mind for a moment, then I scrub that idea, and just have to wait it out till I get in there more.
A flat top tree (Savanna) is NOT my goal, but may lend some aspects to the pads designs.
There just cannot be but a very few main branches. The centre trunk might be quarreling with the right trunk.
Probably because the right branch coming off in the bend there, is more like a trunk. No growth to cut back to
to rebuild a 20 year branch. I doubt rebuilding branches will occur on this one in my care. Reducing, yes.

Don't we need to go slow also in the soil changing over department, like 20 or so percent at each potting with Spruce?

 

[Hartinez]

Hey thanks for the input. Nor am I an expert on such, I am however following Leos cue to work slowly on this one.
Compare these pics...Sept. 2018 and now. I did hardly anything to it last year.
I know it doesn't look like it, but I have edited the canopy some to begin letting the light and air in.
It balked at the sheers displaying an ugly brown crown. Now if I could only find when I did that
I should have posted it in this thread, now I have to try and find pictures on the memory cards in my camera.
There's a good chance I pruned at the optimum time, just after the 1st post here 9/2018.
View attachment 288255 View attachment 288256
After the shoots extend is a good time to prune Picea to promote a 2nd flush (but these buds are so prolific)
and late Summer-early Fall is good for hard pruning and wiring.
I agree I need to thin and maybe am going about it too slowly.

I always like Leos advice, being of sound horticultural mind. It does seem though, that the pics are not comparable due to the time of year and what seems to be a different camera, or filter or something. Mid september during that second bud setting all of my engleman looked very much the same way, but all of them now have a bit of a winter color, though buds are beginning to swell, with them extending, id imagine in the next 2-3 weeks. Even just looking at the grass in the picture on the left compared to that of the pic on the right is striking. Look at the pot color also, almost like there is a filter or a slight haze on the lens of your camera. Your up close photos, minus the brown tips, seem to show a tree full of healthy needles and buds. While im sure their tendancies are different, Englemann spruce should be handled slowly as well. Ive got 3 i collected in spring of 2018 that are doing well. Being that im not in the refinement stage im not trimming any new growth and only letting new growth extend to power root growth. This last fall after letting all new growth extend i was rewarded with buds up and down the new growth and quite a bit of back budding. Not that yours should react the same way. I wonder though if the roots need a bit of breathing as well. Do you think they are getting enough water and oxygen? Id love to see this one thrive for you, as i was saying, i think they are as super cool little tree.

 

[Adair M]

This is a dwarf. The thing with them is they DON’T like being thinned out like @wireme’s tree is thinned out. They like to stay pretty dense.

This is true for dwarf pines as well as spruce.

You can thin them a little, for structure, but they will do better “dense”.

most spruce like humidity, and don’t like getting dried out. They like well draining soil, but they don’t want to get dry, so water often. Misting the foliage is helpful. Protect from the hot sun in mid summer. Especially the roots. Don’t set the pot on something that would get hot from the sun. A wood bench is a better choice than a stone wall, for instance.

 

[Japonicus]

@Hartinez thanks! Yes pics...good growth time of year vs Winter, daytime vs evening with no flash, watered vs dry
same camera and lens. Lighting and moisture is everything with this + the brown tips lol.
So enough water huh? Well, this year I did not need to mulch for cold, but I did have a pond basket dry unhealthily for a clump mugo.
It is ready to water again, but not too light. Your experience with your Spruce is indeed pertinent. Thank you, keep the ideas coming

 

[Japonicus]

they DON’T like being thinned out

You can thin them a little, for structure, but they will do better “dense”.

most spruce like humidity, and don’t like getting dried out. They like well draining soil, but they don’t want to get dry, so water often. Misting the foliage is helpful. Protect from the hot sun in mid summer. Especially the roots. Don’t set the pot on something that would get hot from the sun. A wood bench is a better choice than a stone wall, for instance.

Thanks Adair. Was hoping you'd chime in. I'm finding this out 1st handedly
and you pointing it out helps me to understand what I'm experiencing.
Would you have a go with the soil change over now?

 

[Hartinez]

@Hartinez thanks! Yes pics...good growth time of year vs Winter, daytime vs evening with no flash, watered vs dry
same camera and lens. Lighting and moisture is everything with this + the brown tips lol.
So enough water huh? Well, this year I did not need to mulch for cold, but I did have a pond basket dry unhealthily for a clump mugo.
It is ready to water again, but not too light. Your experience with your Spruce is indeed pertinent. Thank you, keep the ideas coming

@Adair M may be right about the dwarf cultivars, but I couldn’t say. When I collected my spruce I potted them up in a 80% pumice to composted bark mix, kept shaded and watered and misted daily. This last spring, my thought was to keep all of the foliage intact and repot the tree removing about a portion, but not all of the original field soil and poke holes throughout to allow new substrate and airways in. The thought was, not disturbing the foliage mass much if at all would power the new root growth and would allow for trimming this spring. They grew wonderfully for me this last summer and are looking great. And I’ve got plans on styling trimming 2 of the 3. The one was ripped off my benches by my dogs and does not look great. Is Ali e but not looking great.

with all that said, maybe just doing a repot and opening up the root ball a bit, with out doing much, if any trimming to the foliage. With the hopes that the new extensions and mass of foliage will drive the growth and strength after a re-pot.