Leggy branches on pines

[August44]

I collected these pines last year and they are looking very good this year after being re-potted into better grow pots (pictures show them in the old pots) with recommended bonsai soil. No roots were pruned and the re-pot was done while dormant of course. A lot of the conifers collected like Lodgepole, Ponderosa, and 5 needle pines have pretty leggy limbs. This is probably comes from collecting these trees under a high canopy of older trees, so these trees did not get the best of light. I know that they are a long way from being a good bonsai with their small trunks etc, but would like to know how to create more growth along those branches to get ready for wiring and styling that will come down the road. Help appreciated. Peter

 

[A. Gorilla]

Fertilize well all year. And when it's about 3 months before your first frost, you clip off most of the brand new growth from that same year year. That removes the hormones in the tips, which then gives the tree a green light to produce new buds which will grow through the fall, and then be ready to grow into new needles the following spring.

If I can expect my first frost in the 2nd week of October, I would clip the new growth in about the 2nd week of July. I do this on my Pinus Nigras which are also a single flush pine.

 

[August44]

I should clarify...when I said I would like to get more growth along the branches, I would also like to get off shoots that will develop into branches along those leggy branches. Maybe the answer is the same for both though. Peter

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I believe the term you're looking for, Peter, is backbudding. Buds that grow closer to the trunk, or further back on a branch, and that eventually form shoots and later on even new branches.
Every type of pine responds differently to a technique. Ryan Neil almost covers them all in those two videos about pines. The audio is horrible, but the information is awesomely complete. I've watched those two videos about 6 times and still I find new information every time. The red line is pretty clear: just hacking away doesn't cut it, things like excess stored energy and vigor have to be in order first.

Sometimes, like in mugo pines, sunlight and good feeding is enough to encourage back budding.
Sometimes, like in scots pines, sunlight and good feeding and cutting fresh shoots in half, will encourage backbudding.
Sometimes, like in JBP, good feeding and cutting the candles encourages backbudding.
Sometimes, strong growth is enough to activate dormant buds everywhere.
Sometimes, like in Eastern White Pine, nothing really works except for cutting the buds off in winter and hoping for the best.
Sometimes, these techniques are combined, there are about as much variations possible as there are pines in the world.
But most of the times, this is a process of at least 2 years. Especially in single flush species. It takes time and patience. I have a notebook that allows me to look back into the past and to see which technique worked for a certain type of pine.

What would be the best technique for your pines? I don't know. It seems like nobody has ever described the process for pinus albicaulis. This means you could be the very first to find out which techniques work and which don't.
I suggest you set up a trial and see whatever works. It could be a good lesson for the bunch of us too!

 

[0soyoung]

And, there is always wire and bending those branches in ways that make them appear to be much shorter. Look at Pavel Slovak's work, for example. He usually shows the before and after of styling sessions. Awesome stuff.

 

[River's Edge]

I believe the term you're looking for, Peter, is backbudding. Buds that grow closer to the trunk, or further back on a branch, and that eventually form shoots and later on even new branches.
Every type of pine responds differently to a technique. Ryan Neil almost covers them all in those two videos about pines. The audio is horrible, but the information is awesomely complete. I've watched those two videos about 6 times and still I find new information every time. The red line is pretty clear: just hacking away doesn't cut it, things like excess stored energy and vigor have to be in order first.

Sometimes, like in mugo pines, sunlight and good feeding is enough to encourage back budding.
Sometimes, like in scots pines, sunlight and good feeding and cutting fresh shoots in half, will encourage backbudding.
Sometimes, like in JBP, good feeding and cutting the candles encourages backbudding.
Sometimes, strong growth is enough to activate dormant buds everywhere.
Sometimes, like in Eastern White Pine, nothing really works except for cutting the buds off in winter and hoping for the best.
Sometimes, these techniques are combined, there are about as much variations possible as there are pines in the world.
But most of the times, this is a process of at least 2 years. Especially in single flush species. It takes time and patience. I have a notebook that allows me to look back into the past and to see which technique worked for a certain type of pine.

What would be the best technique for your pines? I don't know. It seems like nobody has ever described the process for pinus albicaulis. This means you could be the very first to find out which techniques work and which don't.
I suggest you set up a trial and see whatever works. It could be a good lesson for the bunch of us too!

Just as important is the needle maintenance that allows light to enter the interior where buds are desired. Dealing with any interior buds or areas that may be weakened by lack of sunlight. Also the wiring techniques after cut back and candle trimming or decandling depending on the species. I would encourage a conservative approach until you have a good sense of how the tree responds. Remember the foliage is the engine to pull the train. Pay particular attention to how strong new shoots should be before cutting back to them.

 

[PiñonJ]

Fertilize well all year. And when it's about 3 months before your first frost, you clip off most of the brand new growth from that same year year. That removes the hormones in the tips, which then gives the tree a green light to produce new buds which will grow through the fall, and then be ready to grow into new needles the following spring.

If I can expect my first frost in the 2nd week of October, I would clip the new growth in about the 2nd week of July. I do this on my Pinus Nigras which are also a single flush pine.

This is not Ryan’s current approach. He feels that back budding is stimulated by heavy traffic of nutrients, etc. in the vascular system, which is driven by foliar mass, so he fertilizes heavily in early development. He’ll set branch structure the second year in collection, but no bud pruning.

 

[A. Gorilla]

This is not Ryan’s current approach. He feels that back budding is stimulated by heavy traffic of nutrients, etc. in the vascular system, which is driven by foliar mass, so he fertilizes heavily in early development. He’ll set branch structure the second year in collection, but no bud pruning.

I seem to have glossed over the fact that these are recently collected. True.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Peter44
This will be only the second, or maybe 3rd growing season for these trees since being collected. This will likely be the first season they will really have a chance to grow on the new root systems they built last year. If I were you, I would just give them full sun, frequent water, and a mild dose frequently of fertilizer. The more growth you get the more back budding you get. These newly collected trees are too young to pull needles. They are too young to do the bud pruning techniques. If you try to force the issue now, you might do more harm than good.

Also, I hesitate, absolutely would not remove every new bud in July or all new growth. Too soon. You might try this their 5th growing season, but you might not need to. The trees will respond themselves.

Autumn is a time for bud and branch selection. On these young trees if there is a branch or two that are clearly in bad places and need to go, you can prune them off in autumn. But this is not wholesale pruning.

 

[Shibui]

And, there is always wire and bending those branches in ways that make them appear to be much shorter. Look at Pavel Slovak's work, for example. He usually shows the before and after of styling sessions. Awesome stuff.

This approach is far motre reliable than any backbud promoting. We did this on an older, overgrown JBP at a workshop with Pavel a couple of years ago.

Grafting new shoots is another last resort for putting new shoots where you need them that has not yet been mentioned.

Hopefully those trees are young enough to respond to some or all of the bud stimulating techniques offered. The older the branches the less inclined they are to produce buds. Young, healthy growth often responds well.

This case shows the importance of carefully selecting trees that are really worth collecting as opposed to those that will take far too much to produce good bonsai.

 

[August44]

Thanks all for contributing to this. There is a lot of talk here about heavy on the fertilizer. I will try that that with these new trees, but read or was told not to fertilize until you see growth. Is that true? Please suggest a good liquid type fertilizer, when I should start, and the acceptable dosage and I will get with the program and see what happens. Thanks, Peter

PS: I have Uncle Bill's Bonsai brew, 3-3-3 and Organic Neptune Harvest, 2-3-1 if those will work.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Both Uncle Bill's and Neptune's Harvest are good. Use them.

I dissolve a chemical fertilizer in water, to make liquid fertilizer. This is not organic, but I don't use organic fertilizer or methods other on bonsai, I'm only organic for the food plants on the farm.

Key with fertilizer. It is better to use a dilute solution frequently, than to use a concentrated solution less often. Weakly Weekly is my mantra.

I usually wait for growth to begin before fertilizing.

 

[August44]

I have been reading and looking at videos in regards to pine pinching, pruning, etc. I just need to understand the candle pruning. What is the difference between pinching and cutting of the candles?Also, if I have three candles coming out of the end of a branch, one longer one and two shorter ones, can I assume that the longer one is going to be the branch extension and the other two will be smaller branches off of that one. If I cut all of them in half after the needles form a bit on the candles, does that mean the main branch and the two smaller ones will only be half as big as they would have been if I had not cut them off at all? I am understanding that candle clipping causes the tree to back bud further down the branch, but I don't know how far back down the branch. Help appreciated. Thanks, Peter

 

[0soyoung]

It depends upon what species of pine you are talking about, but in general, it is most likely a fascicular bud (at the base of an existing needle group) nearby, then the node below, and after that it is catches-catch-can - maybe on the trunk, maybe .... ?

Some species like white pines (p. strobus, p. parviflora, etc.) will (almost) never bud on bare wood. Some, like p. sylvestris and p. mugo will bud just about anywhere, but quite unpredictably. P. thunbergii, p. densiflora, are the species decandled in std. bonsai practice and exhibit what I'm calling the general back budding behavior.

Keep in mind that a vigorously growing tree with good nitrogen nutrition is the key predicate for back budding.

 

[Ali Raza]

It depends upon what species of pine you are talking about, but in general, it is most likely a fascicular bud (at the base of an existing needle group) nearby, then the node below, and after that it is catches-catch-can - maybe on the trunk, maybe .... ?

Some species like white pines (p. strobus, p. parviflora, etc.) will (almost) never bud on bare wood. Some, like p. sylvestris and p. mugo will bud just about anywhere, but quite unpredictably. P. thunbergii, p. densiflora, are the species decandled in std. bonsai practice and exhibit what I'm calling the general back budding behavior.

Keep in mind that a vigorously growing tree with good nitrogen nutrition is the key predicate for back budding.

Well said it seems very rational explanation. Can't wait to experiment on my pines trees.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Thanks all for contributing to this. There is a lot of talk here about heavy on the fertilizer. I will try that that with these new trees, but read or was told not to fertilize until you see growth. Is that true? Please suggest a good liquid type fertilizer, when I should start, and the acceptable dosage and I will get with the program and see what happens. Thanks, Peter

PS: I have Uncle Bill's Bonsai brew, 3-3-3 and Organic Neptune Harvest, 2-3-1 if those will work.

Walter Pall uses whatever's on sale. I use 20-20-20 weekly once growth begins/twice weekly on pines/Douglas Fir after harden off of foliage to encourage bud setting.

 

[Shibui]

I only use candle pruning on trees that have reached the final phase. Trunk is correct size and shape and branches ready to ramify. Use different techniques on pines that are still growing.

Also, if I have three candles coming out of the end of a branch, one longer one and two shorter ones, can I assume that the longer one is going to be the branch extension and the other two will be smaller branches off of that one.

You should only have a single branch at any point on bonsai. Retaining 2 side branches at one place will lead to localised thickening - not attractive. Where there are 3 candles you will eventually remove one entirely and leave just 2 - one will become a side branch, the other will be the branch extension. I usually find it better to take out the stronger centre one and keep 2 smaller ones. That keeps the tree a bit more compact and the change of direction in a branch is good - straight branches not really desirable.

If I cut all of them in half after the needles form a bit on the candles, does that mean the main branch and the two smaller ones will only be half as big as they would have been if I had not cut them off at all?

Yes but if the tree is still growing thicker or taller you can leave these to grow full length and cut back after a year or 2. Needles will stay healthy for a couple of years at least and new buds can grow wherever there are healthy needles after you prune. I allow developing pines to grow freely for 2-3 years then cut back to lowest healthy needles to get new buds that will take over and grow new branches and trunk. Much easier to show than write. Be aware that most spring candles will have a bare 'neck' at the base of the new candle/shoot. Buds will not usually grow on this bare section so if the candles are strong and have a large bare section it may be best to cut the entire candle off to get new buds from the base. Second buds are generally smaller and probably won't have the bare section so more options for subsequent pruning.

I am understanding that candle clipping causes the tree to back bud further down the branch, but I don't know how far back down the branch. Help appreciated.

Osoyoung has already indicated this will depend on the species. All pines I have tried will shoot new buds from healthy needles after pruning but some may also bud on bare wood below the lowest needles. New buds usually only come when the pines are pruned back hard. They would rather grow from existing shoots if you leave any.

Unfortunately there is not just one way to grow pines. Different techniques and timing for different situations and different responses on the same species and different techniques timing for different species.

I have yet to meet a pine that can read fertiliser packets. They are only interested in nutrients and all fertilisers have nutrients. Use any fertiliser you have handy at the recommended strength

 

[August44]

Thanks again for the input guys. I am working with the 3 needle Ponderosa Pine ( Pinus ponderosa), 2 needle Lodgepole Pine (Pinus contorta latifolia), and the 5 needle White Bark Pines (Pinus albicaulis). It seems that no one has had much experience with the white bark one, but maybe you can tell me about your experience with the other two. I have attached pictures of two white bark pines that I collected last spring. All of them I saw in the forest looked like this...leggy branches with big areas of no buds or needles. It could be that I need to look out in the open verses under the canopies and I am going to do that this year for all these pines if this winters snow will go away. The JBP is very vigorous and easily buds back. I can see why it is used so much.

 

[Gabler]

Thanks again for the input guys. I am working with the 3 needle Ponderosa Pine ( Pinus ponderosa), 2 needle Lodgepole Pine (Pinus contorta latifolia), and the 5 needle White Bark Pines (Pinus albicaulis). It seems that no one has had much experience with the white bark one, but maybe you can tell me about your experience with the other two. I have attached pictures of two white bark pines that I collected last spring. All of them I saw in the forest looked like this...leggy branches with big areas of no buds or needles. It could be that I need to look out in the open verses under the canopies and I am going to do that this year for all these pines if this winters snow will go away. The JBP is very vigorous and easily buds back. I can see why it is used so much.

Did the advice you received help you get the pine trees growing how you wanted?

 

[August44]

Yes somewhat. When I was new to this, I didn't understand some things that were said. It was my lack of experience and knowledge and not the person posting. I think some folks that have a lot of experience say things that about anyone with bonsai knowledge understands and sometimes I didn't. I was hesitant to look to stupid, so didn't ask the OP to clarify. If I had a club here with knowledgeable people I would be a lot better, but I don't have a club even close. I do think high on iron fertilizer about late spring or early fall really helps back budding. Lots of sun is very good also but watch the 100+ F as that temp can cause serious lack of water problems and dark colored pots will soak up the sun and could then get the soils to hot and fry the roots. I think 100+ temps are scary for any plant, and I would protect them during that time. I would also moss the top of the soil all around the tree. That will keep the tree more moist that just bonsai soils. I am very hesitant to put trees in small pots because of weather conditions. I try and concentrate on keeping this alive. My biggest fault is over-watering. Pines ( and other trees) do not like that and will die from root rot fungus if you continue to do it.
Best of luck to you.