large trident... ground layer or root graft?

[Aaronkslater]

This was my acquisition last year from the Bonsai West Fall Sale. The trunk on this beast is about 5 inches across right above the root flair. I haven't found the front or planting angle yet but I'm almost sure I will need to do some work on the nebari no matter what direction I go in.

Question for the large trident experienced out there: should I ground layer it or do a bunch of thread grafting of roots onto it? What are the pros and cons of each? I've never ground layered something this large... is there much danger of killing it? It seems that grafting gives more control and less chance of killing the tree but will take longer? Is that true? will the results of ground layering look more natural? I'm conflicted and don't want to mess up (kill) a decent piece of material... and my most expensive bonsai purchase to date.

thanks for your advice!

 

[Dav4]

I've had poor results with layering tridents, but very good results with root grafts. Unless you have access to seedlings that are still dormant, you'll have to put things off until next year, but I'd do the grafting. I'd plan on moving it to a deep wooden grow box next spring, have 40-50 seedlings available and perform A LOT of grafts. In 2 years, you'll have vastly improved this material.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

This website is full of ways to torture tridents https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/trident-maples/

 

[Adamantium]

I've had poor results with layering tridents, but very good results with root grafts. Unless you have access to seedlings that are still dormant, you'll have to put things off until next year, but I'd do the grafting. I'd plan on moving it to a deep wooden grow box next spring, have 40-50 seedlings available and perform A LOT of grafts. In 2 years, you'll have vastly improved this material.

Completely agreed. Grafting would look way better.

I'm curious, why would it be better to use dormant saplings? Don't most layers take best if you start them after leaves harden off? I realize it's a graft, not a layer, but isn't it the same principle? Or not really, since you want the cambium to fuse?

 

[small trees]

Completely agreed. Grafting would look way better.

I'm curious, why would it be better to use dormant saplings? Don't most layers take best if you start them after leaves harden off? I realize it's a graft, not a layer, but isn't it the same principle? Or not really, since you want the cambium to fuse?

how are you going to fit a leafed out sapling through a hole in the trunk?

 

[Dav4]

Completely agreed. Grafting would look way better.

I'm curious, why would it be better to use dormant saplings? Don't most layers take best if you start them after leaves harden off? I realize it's a graft, not a layer, but isn't it the same principle? Or not really, since you want the cambium to fuse?

how are you going to fit a leafed out sapling through a hole in the trunk?

What he said. Thread grafting on maples is done with whips without leaves, and healthy trident seedlings post thread grafting, in the right soil with good food and sun exposure, are going to grow so quickly as to be fully grafted by the end of the first year.

 

[BonsaiMatt]

I am curious about how to thread graft at the angles you would want the roots to exit the trunk. Seems like the top of the seedling would need to exit under the trunk or on the other side of the nebari...
Any tips on how this is done properly? Approach grafts are often not so pretty when a monkey like me does them... ?

 

[Aaronkslater]

thread grafts do exit under the soil but as long as they can extend above the soil they leaf out there and continue to grow and fuse

 

[Aaronkslater]

I've had poor results with layering tridents, but very good results with root grafts. Unless you have access to seedlings that are still dormant, you'll have to put things off until next year, but I'd do the grafting. I'd plan on moving it to a deep wooden grow box next spring, have 40-50 seedlings available and perform A LOT of grafts. In 2 years, you'll have vastly improved this material.

thanks Dav4!
I have four dormant whips now (wife keeps asking what these trees are doing in the fridge) maybe I'll thread these now... And I am starting 50 seeds any day now (currently stratifying). I didn't think I would need 40 grafts though! It's good to hear that and start thinking along those lines... Do you think one year old whips or two year whips? attempt 40 grafts in one go or do half and then the other half the year after?

thanks all

 

[Dav4]

I am curious about how to thread graft at the angles you would want the roots to exit the trunk. Seems like the top of the seedling would need to exit under the trunk or on the other side of the nebari...
Any tips on how this is done properly? Approach grafts are often not so pretty when a monkey like me does them... ?

If you're wanting to perform root grafts on big stock like this, you're going to need big bits. Those drill bits are 12 inches long.

 

[Dav4]

thanks Dav4!
I have four dormant whips now (wife keeps asking what these trees are doing in the fridge) maybe I'll thread these now... And I am starting 50 seeds any day now (currently stratifying). I didn't think I would need 40 grafts though! It's good to hear that and start thinking along those lines... Do you think one year old whips or two year whips? attempt 40 grafts in one go or do half and then the other half the year after?

thanks all

Your seedlings will be any where from 1 to 3 ft tall next spring... perfect! I'd have as many seedlings as available next spring, and do as many as you think you need, then plan on having more seedlings available at the next repot.
These pictures were separated by 2 years... the root grafts from the first picture make up most of the roots seen in the second picture.

 

[Adamantium]

What he said. Thread grafting on maples is done with whips without leaves, and healthy trident seedlings post thread grafting, in the right soil with good food and sun exposure, are going to grow so quickly as to be fully grafted by the end of the first year.

Ahh, so I was thinking you would just strip half the cambium, make a notch in the base of the tree, and then press the two together, using cut paste to secure them. I didn't think we were talking about thread grafting. I thought that was only for putting branches where you want them.

I thought root grafts were treated differently.

Edit: Like you did there in that last photo.

 

[Dav4]

Ahh, so I was thinking you would just strip half the cambium, make a notch in the base of the tree, and then press the two together, using cut paste to secure them. I didn't think we were talking about thread grafting. I thought that was only for putting branches where you want them.

I thought root grafts were treated differently.

Edit: Like you did there in that last photo.

Right, in the last photo, I performed an approach graft instead of a thread graft. I still wouldn't do this with leafed out seedlings as everything needs to be bare rooted to do the work properly.

 

[Adamantium]

Right, in the last photo, I performed an approach graft instead of a thread graft. I still wouldn't do this with leafed out seedlings as everything needs to be bare rooted to do the work properly.

Makes sense. Thanks!

 

[AlainK]

should I ground layer it or do a bunch of thread grafting of roots onto it?

Thread grafing, but I think it would be even better to repot it in a container three times as wide and half that deep : in a "flat" container, the roots will spread and fuse.

You could do both actually...