JWP - back budding strategy

[montipirlo]

Hi there.
I'd like to building a back budding strategy on young JWP.

I read a lot about needle plucking, sun bathing and needle density balance all over the tree.
My questions are about:

1) Needle balancing: Do you balancing the needle density while they are still spreading from the candles?
With more words: on last summer i do needle selection, removing the old ones and some few ones balancing energy from botton to top. While the candles are opening, even if we have done some bud selection in autumn, more needles will spread from the top and candles in the bottom branches don't grow so much.
Is it good to remove same top needles ( not too much, just a few ) to balance the energy of spring power?

2) Candles Cutting: I watch a Ryan Neil 's video on you tube talking about white pine. He says that a backbudding strategy for white pine is let the candles grow, spread and mature the needles, let the energy flow from the roots to the top of the branch and then cut the new flush leaving some of new needles. By this cut, after the needle maturation, removing the auxine prodution bud, we will get backbuds.
What do you think about this threatment? Do you practice normally?

Thanks

Davide

 

[Adair M]

Pictures always help.

JWP are difficult to get to back bud. They'll do it, but only reluctantly. Maybe.

Ryan's strategy works, but you can't count on it. You might get some back buds, you might not.

Make sure when you do cut the candles back you leave some new needles. Removing all the new needles will kill the twig.

It's important to have the tree wired out. Doing so will open up the canopy, and allow sun light into the interior. Sunlight stimulates backbudding.

On my white pines, I do break back the really strong ones to match the strength of the weaker ones in the spring. If there are more than 2 candles growing from the same spot, I will eliminate extras, leaving two.

 

[Adair M]

One more thing:

I usually don't fertilize my JWP much in the spring. I don't want long, leggy, candles, or long needles. My usual practice is to start fertilizing after the needles have hardened off in the summer. I fertilize late summer and into the fall to build strength for the following spring.

If, however, you are in an earlier, development mode, and really want to induce backbudding, it might be better to feed in the spring, so that the tree will be strong when you reduce the candles. And it will have the strength to backbud. You are going to be cutting the candles back anyway, and you probably don't care about needle length at least this point in its development.

 

[montipirlo]

Hi Adair,
thank you very much for your replies.

This is one of my white pine. I bought it few days ago.
i was thinking it was to late to candle pincking, so a i let them grow. I only do a soft needle pugging of the old needle on the top.

As you see lower branches aren't so rich of candles and are a little leggy.
In late summer i'll gonna balancing needle, let the lowest branch with more density compared to top branches.

In this phase i don't care about needle length, i'd rather concentrate on buildind a second/third dense ramification.
So i give organic fertilizen because i'd like to have backbuding result.

Do you think the top is too dense? I have to reduce the new flush right now or have to wait needle maturation?

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

You are in good hands!

Sorce

 

[montipirlo]

Hi Sorce,
thank you very much.

Really nice forum here...

 

[YukiShiro]

to add to what Mr Adair said about waiting for the needles to harden off before starting to fertilize:
- there is another reason to start fertilizing later for back budding too. When you feed early the most nutrients goes towards the extending candles and their needles, not much is used for budding. But when you fertilize later on when the candles have already extended and the needles have hardened off you will start fertilizing as the tree starts developing buds for the next season, so all the nutrients will go towards bud production, and this helps a lot with back budding. At least from my observations and limited experience with white pines.
goes to argue that feeding early and throughout the year will yield better results.

Best regards
Herman

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair,
thank you very much for your replies.

This is one of my white pine. I bought it few days ago.
i was thinking it was to late to candle pincking, so a i let them grow. I only do a soft needle pugging of the old needle on the top.

As you see lower branches aren't so rich of candles and are a little leggy.
In late summer i'll gonna balancing needle, let the lowest branch with more density compared to top branches.

In this phase i don't care about needle length, i'd rather concentrate on buildind a second/third dense ramification.
So i give organic fertilizen because i'd like to have backbuding result.

Do you think the top is too dense? I have to reduce the new flush right now or have to wait needle maturation?

Nice tree!

Is the apex denser than the top of the tree? Certainly. Is it too dense to the point it needs thinning? Probably not.

The bottom of the tree has gotten leggy because it has gotten shaded out by the top of the tree.

The first step is take is to wire the lower branches out. Wiring and styling the lower branches will expose them to the sun. Sunlight stimulates the tree to backbud.

Start at the bottom, work your way up.

I'd only do the bottom half of the tree right now. Let me explain:

The best time to wire JWP late summer, early fall. After the needles have hardened. Why? They're less fragile. Young needles are easily damaged, and when we wire, it's easy to accidently impart damage. Especially in those denser, crowded areas.

So, why am I suggesting to wire the bottom now? Because those branches are not crowded and dense, so it should be pretty easy to wire them without inflicting damage!

So, wire the bottom 3 or 4 branches, get them splayed out, exposed to the sun, and they'll get a head start on bud building for next year.

Then in early fall, wire the top half.

As Herman says, buds are built in the fall. Whatever back budding you get wont start happening until next spring. Maybe the one after that! (JWP are slow!).

 

[Adair M]

And here's my Zuisho JWP:



I wired out (well, mostly - I didn't do the small twigs) the bottom 3 or 4 branches, and I'm waiting until this fall to wire the rest. And I'll wire the small twigs on the bottom branches then, too.

 

[montipirlo]

Nice Pine Adair!!!
I love it. Long path head but great potential.

I'd like your advice of wiring the bottom branches of the tree.
In the next days i'll wire and i'll post some picture.

What about a similar leggy white pines with bottom branch wired in autumn?
is it better remove the wire after needle maturation to let more branch surface in the sun or it doesn't change nothing?

Thank you very much for you answer,
I really appreciate them.

 

[YukiShiro]

And here's my Zuisho JWP:

View attachment 105148

I wired out (well, mostly - I didn't do the small twigs) the bottom 3 or 4 branches, and I'm waiting until this fall to wire the rest. And I'll wire the small twigs on the bottom branches then, too.

I am truly envious Mr Adair. Lovely White pine!

can you tell us more about your zuisho? I do not see any graft and the roots do not look much like black pine roots, nor can I find black pine bark anywhere.
Dunno if i will ever be able to grow white pine on it's own roots where I'm at. I wonder if the bonsai growers on shikoku island keep any non grafted white pines?

the zone envy is becoming unbearable....

Best regards
Herman

 

[Adair M]

Nice Pine Adair!!!
I love it. Long path head but great potential.

I'd like your advice of wiring the bottom branches of the tree.
In the next days i'll wire and i'll post some picture.

What about a similar leggy white pines with bottom branch wired in autumn?
is it better remove the wire after needle maturation to let more branch surface in the sun or it doesn't change nothing?

Thank you very much for you answer,
I really appreciate them.

There's no reason to remove the wire if it's not cutting in. Pines will always have wire on them. The only reason to remove it is if it's cutting in, or if the tips of the branches have extended too much, and the y need wiring. So, remove the wire and replace. Try not to place the new wire in the same groove as the old wire.

Typically, my wire stays on for three years before I replace it. Unless it's a rapidly growing branch. Then it gets replaced when I notice it cuts in.

If you are concerned that the wire will cover up potential dormant buds... Well, I suppose it could...

But, using a single, properly sized wire - and copper is thinner and stronger than aluminum - will minimize that problem. If you use too small a wire, and have to "double up", that would cover up more buds. So, wiring correctly has benefits: uses less wire, covers fewer dormant buds, works well, looks good.

Backbudding, especially on JWP, might take a couple years.

Colin Lewis has a great free tutorial on wiring on Craftsy.com. You do have to register. Once in, search for bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

I am truly envious Mr Adair. Lovely White pine!

can you tell us more about your zuisho? I do not see any graft and the roots do not look much like black pine roots, nor can I find black pine bark anywhere.
Dunno if i will ever be able to grow white pine on it's own roots where I'm at. I wonder if the bonsai growers on shikoku island keep any non grafted white pines?

the zone envy is becoming unbearable....

Best regards
Herman

Herman, my Zuisho was airlayered by Julian Adams 19 years ago. I bought it last December.

Zuisho and Kokonoe are two cultivars of JWP that will propagate via airlayers fairly easily. Zuisho, in fact, CAN be started by cuttings! The take rate is very low, about 5%.

But, the best way to propogating either of them is to graft scions onto JBP seedlings. Let them grow a couple years, THEN airlayer them onto their own roots.

My tree has some issues that I am addressing. Julian used 100% turface as his growing medium. I think it's too fine. I prefer a coarser medium. So, I did a half bare root repot to begin the transition to Boon Mix. When doing that, I found the root system was one sided. Lots of roots on one side of the nebari, few on the other. So, I cut "Windows" on the lower trunk where I want new roots, and stuffed in spaghnum moss. Same as you would an airlayer. Hopefully, I'll get roots. If not, then next year, I'll just airlayer the whole trunk and start over.

The tree is about 6 inches too tall. So, at some point, I'll airlayer off the current apex.

It's about 20 years old now, so the original grey bark is beginning to flake off. So, the thing to do is a "one time procedure", and peel the outer layer of bark off! The bark underneath is the mature bark that will eventually look like JBP bark. That smooth grey bark we see on young JWP will eventually fall off on its own. When it turns loose, at about 20 years of age, you can go ahead and peel it off to expose the mature bark underneath.

One last thing: Zuisho and Kokonoe JWP grafts on JBP will eventually fail. The growth rates of the JBP stock and the JWP scions differ enough do that eventually, the grafts will get misaligned. And the tree will die. So, plan on layering off the top onto its own roots at some point. And get rid of the JBP roots.

This one was originally grafted on JBP roots. It's now on its own roots:

 

[montipirlo]

Hi Adair,
as you suggested i wired the lowest branches, spreding them and let them receive more sun.
I've done a simple wiring, only on the biggest branch trying not to damage the new flush.

This late summer or early fall, i gonna wire all the tree moving the top branches in the right position.

Btw i found the Lewis's lessons on Crafty.

Sorry to bother you but i can't stop making question.

I'm really interested about you airlayering procedure on JWP.
Can you give us some advice about the time and the tecnique?
Have you got any pictures of the procedure?

Thank you for your kindness
Davide

 

[Adair M]

Airlayer (or ground layer) is just like for any other tree. But remember, it pretty much only works with Zuisho and Kokonoe cultivars of JWP.

If you don't have one of those two cultivars, I wouldn't try it. I have never heard of anyone successfully layering a JWP that wasn't one of those two. (Now watch... As soon as I make a statement like that, someone will come along and say it can be done! So if they do, find out how from them how it's done!)

Zuisho and Kokonoe are somewhat rare, you'll know if you have one!

 

[Giga]

Do all white pine grafts fail? I have a Aoi that is grafted, is that something I need to worry about down the road?

 

[Adair M]

Do all white pine grafts fail? I have a Aoi that is grafted, is that something I need to worry about down the road?

The short answer is yes.

But...

Some will last longer than others. It depends on the graft. And how it's treated.

Trees that are pushed with a lot of fertilizer to grow fast are more likely to fail than those that aren't.

The "wild card" is the JBP stock. Pretty much the JWP scions are all clones of the same tree, so it's pretty predictable. The JBP stock are seedlings. And they vary. A lot. Some thicken up faster than others. Unfortunately, there's really no way to predict it.

When choosing a JWP grafted on JBP stock, the first thing to evaluate is the graft Union and see if the caliper size of the two are still somewhat close.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are some that are over 100 years old! Some won't make it to 20.

My best advice for those who have one, and I have one, is don't try to force too much growth too fast. The JWP part is somewhat of a dwarf type. It grows slower than typical JWP seedlings. Thus compounding the graft compatibility issue! And these WERE pushed hard when they were "manufactured" in Japan.

So, if you see one that has a very fat JBP trunk, but thin JWP top, I'd not purchase it. ( Unfortunately, many of the ones we see here in the US are these types. They can't sell them in Japan, so they export them.)