Just starting out, Specific questions

[GoingGreen]

Hi all,

I am new to the art of Bonsai and I have done a lot of online studying but I have yet to embark on the journey itself until now...

Anyone who takes up a new form of art or a new hobby has goals and aspirations at the beginning, and in my experience with new hobbies, these goals change and mature as experience teaches. I have always enjoyed the art from the spectator point of view, but now I have decided it is time to take up the hobby myself.

My aspiration is to start with miniature bonsai. I would like to start my journey by training seedlings from day one as bonsai and shaping my trees as the years go by, but I haven't found a lot of specifics on whether this can be done successfully or not, let alone how to do this. Most bonsai training seems to start from a tree somewhat established, where the tree was allowed to grow unencumbered for a few years, then the roots are pruned, the tree is re-potted, and the shaping and training follows.

I have lots of sugar maples that grow on and around my property, and every year little seedlings sprout up around the larger trees, coming up through the mulch etc. I would like to dig up a few of these little seedlings, most are only 6 inches or smaller and only have 2-8 small leaves at this time, and I would like to immediately plant them in a bonsai dish or small pot, and shape them and train them from day one. I would like their maximum size to reach no more than 12-18 inches tall.

Here are a list of a few questions for just starting out:

Can I achieve a miniature bonsai by planting a seedling in bonsai soil in a small, shallow pot and train it and shape it from day one?

If so, what soil mixture would be best for a sugar maple seedling?

Can miniature maples survive indoors? If not, the plants will be kept outside until the fall.

How soon, if I should plant these little guys, should I think about fertilizing them?

Lastly, what is the best and safest way to shape little seedlings?


I'm very grateful for all input anyone might have on this.

Thanks,
Craig

 

[cmeg1]

personally,I feel that growing from seed is a very viable meens to develop miniature bonsai.I would not use sugar maple.I am currently growing Japanese Black Pine and Japanese Zelkova from seed.What you need is Bonsai Today Magazine issue#71 so you can learn to grow Zelkova from seed.Also the 'Pines' book,available from stone lantern,has a great way to develop Japanese Black Pine from seed.Both of which I have.I see that #71 is still available on Stone Lanterns website.The Zelkove method is very fun.The japanese Black Pine method is very fun also in the 'Pines'book.
My only consideration is the present time of year.Both the species I mentioned do best with a 60 day cold stratification in the fridge to germinate.This is best started in March.THOUGH,I think they will sprout from seed at a lower percentage from straight planting.It is worth a try,unless wait till'next growing season.Order seed from Dallas Bonsai.It is very viable.Order more seed than you think you need.And I would not be tempted to start with any other varieties yet and buy the publications I mentioned.I would not be tempted to buy any seedling on-line either.They would be past he point of crucial preperations described in the books I mentioned.

 

[GoingGreen]

Ok, I just read a lot about how tough Sugar Maples are to bonsai, so I took a closer look and these aren't Sugars, they're Silver Maples... not sure how much difference that makes, but I haven't heard as much negativity surrounding Silvers.

I do really want to try a Juniper or something like that, but as of right now, I have the Maples shooting up all around me and figured I can dig them up and I have a head start since it's already May... any suggestions on care for these little guys would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Again

 

[cmeg1]

A silver? I have never seen one as bonsai ,but it would definately give you something to do and care for.I would use Dyna-Gro fertilizer at the once a month application so that the growth will be somewhat controled.Let the first flush of growth completely harden before you start fertilizing at the monthly dosage of Dyna-Gro fert.

 

[cmeg1]

I should mention that the first tree I ever had was a sugar maple.It was not good for bonsai,neither would a silver.On the other hand someone who likes 'novelty' bonsai may like that sort of thing.

 

[Poink88]

Just be warned that you might get bored to death by starting from a seed. If you know that coming in fine...but I believe it is best to start with the best stock you can get now. Time is very precious and sorry but in a way you are wasting a few years to arrive to worthy stick if you do that. Sure you can have a nice bonsai that way, but same can be said if you start with a 5 year old stock (you just get there 5 years shorter).

I am not discouraging you just showing the other side...then you choose and proceed as wish.

Best compromise...get a few 5 gallon specimen from your nursery and work on it....while waiting for your seed to sprout.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Can I achieve a miniature bonsai by planting a seedling in bonsai soil in a small, shallow pot and train it and shape it from day one?

Can miniature maples survive indoors? If not, the plants will be kept outside until the fall.

You can achieve a bonsai by planting a seedling in a small pot, BUT you must understand that it will take many, many, many years. A seedling in a bonsai pot will grow very, very slowly.

Maples cannot survive indoors, they must stay outside 24/7/365. Don't even worry about bringing them indoors in the fall.

Welcome!

 

[rockm]

Rule of thumb---The smaller the bonsai, the greater the need for experience on the grower's part. The smaller the bonsai, the more vulenerable it is to adverse conditions and grower errors. Smaller pots dry out quicker, there is less margin for error in pruning. Small errors like overly aggressive --or under agressive-- root pruning, have enormous consequences for small bonsai. A misapplication of insecticide that might only slow a bigger tree down can kill a smaller one.

This means your learning curve is going to extremely steep as you begin--bringing temperate zone trees indoors for the winter is a big no-no for instance. Just because a temperate zone tree like a maple is put in a pot doesn't make it a houseplant. Temperate zone deciduous trees NEED cold weather to remain healthy. They require a genetically determined chilling period (temperature requirements vary depending on species) to being growth again in the spring. Brining them in can short-circuit that process.

Silver maple is an extremely poor choice for mame (small) bonsai. It has huge leaves which are difficult to reduce, long internodes (space between leaf pair) and gangly limbs. Sugar maples are similar, but can be tamed a bit more.

Seedlings are not shaped for years. The first order of business in creating a bonsai (small and large) is to get a decent trunk to work with. That means simply allowing seedlings to grow untouched for the most part for at least two years. You cannot "shape" a seedling trunk that has not produced woody tissue--pruning has no effect on green tissue--it's not mature enough to produce the needed hormone kick to produce backbudding.

 

[nihiles]

So what youre saying is...

just joined to join the discussion as i am in the same boat as GOINGGREEN (just with japanese maples). i transplanted them into pots and have spent the last week trying to find info on what i SHOULD be doing next. so the only thing i should be doing is letting them grow naturally and play/learn on an already established tree?

 

[rockm]

"so the only thing i should be doing is letting them grow naturally and play/learn on an already established tree?"

Basically, yes. The seedlings in the pictures are at least two year away from having to "do" anything to them.

Here's the thing-- a convincing bonsai depends largely on the first third of the tree's trunk. Without a believeable trunk base to work with, it's not easy to make the image of a mature (or even young) tree in a pot. A trunk is the foundation that a believable bonsai is built on (not particularly in size, but in relative diameter its height) More mature bark also adds character--immature young maples don't have that. Their stems remain green for years...

Seedlings have no character for the most part. They need time to develop some of the features that mark a mature tree, which after all, is what people see in bonsai.

Down the road from now, you can start pruning the root mass of these every couple of years to force roots laterally instead of their natural tendency to grow downwards. Spreading, developed surface roots or "nebari" are also a feature that greatly adds to the finished bonsai. It takes a long time to develop a good one.

Don't be to discouraged though. In planting seedlings you've essentially put something in the bank for a few years from now.