Just how variable are JM seeds?

[SeanS]

I have a few hundred JM seeds that I collected and have been stratifying in the fridge. They’ve been sprouting in the fridge and I’ve been sowing them this past week. But I have so many I want to try planting some in little groups of seeds to start clump and forest groupings. My question is are JM seeds too variable to do this? Will clumps of seedlings from the same tree be similar enough to produce clumps or forests with similar characteristics, or should I rather wait until they’re older and I can tell which seedlings are similar enough before I group them together?

I’d like to start them off planted together as soon as possible to get them really intertwined and compacted together at the roots. I’ve done this with trident seeds which are not as variable but I’m not sure if JMs are too variable to do the same?

 

[leatherback]

they are highly variable

 

[SeanS]

@Bonsai Nut please fix my thread title, JM*

 

[Shibui]

It depends on the seed source.
If collected from a cultivar there can be significant variation as cultivars are themselves atypical which means they have unstable genetics.
If collected from a garden or park with a range of different cultivars there will be a higher chance of gene swapping so more differences in the seedlings.
If seed is from a regular green leaf Japanese maple with no different cultivars nearby chances are the seedlings will be relatively similar as genes of the typical JM have been stabilized by nature for thousands of years. Even then JM are known to produce regular differences in seedlings. That's why we have so many cultivars with such a range of leaf shape and habit.

I'd certainly be waiting until the seedlings show characteristics. Getting a good clump union won't mean anything if one or more are atypical. Waiting a few months r even a year won't actually set back the fusion. Most of the growth and fusion will occur in the second year. You will also have much better control over placement and angles when assembling slightly larger seedlings. Seedlings can still be grown in community pots or boxes to save space. Just mark the odd ones during summer so they don't end up fused with others next winter.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you are going to a clump or a forest, I would highly recommend clones. It would be a shame to spend ten years building a nice clump and have one trunk with slightly different leaves.

 

[rodeolthr]

My personal experience.....almost all seedlings from my small-seeded green palmatum are nearly identical. In contrast, my acer shira. 'palmatifolium' has incredible variability and I never know what will come from those seedlings. Laceleaf/dissectum seedlings can have either dissected leaves or "standard" leaf shape. The seedling from the linealobum types seem to take a few years before the "strap leaf" becomes evident.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

As an alternative, plant a clump of seeds, then thin out, removing the seedlings that are not uniform.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

For clumps which are to be planted very close together and fuse then you would want cuttings to guarantee they would be the same. For a forest of generic green or purpureum your seeds may be reasonably similar especially if from the same tree. I agrre with Leo, plant them in seed trays and give them a year to see what the leaves look like, then plant them in clusters. I have one JM forest with trees that are all very similar but just as a matter of serendipity as I got them in a workshop. The good thing is they were not grafted. Take a look at Bjorn’s video

 

[Arlithrien]

I've found that most seedlings that share a parent tree will have a certain uniformity to them. They may not look as pleasing as the parent, but there will generally be an average phenotype in the group with some outliers here and there. After 3 years the traits are evident and you can begin deciding which material is worth keeping and which is worth culling.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

When you buy maple seed from a company like Sheffields, you can get seed from a specific cultivar. The will sell packets of seed, for example from 'Deshojo', now the seeds won't be perfect matches for 'Deshojo', and you can not call the seedlings 'Deshojo' because the genetics are re-arranged. But like @Arlithrien said, the seedlings will have an "in common" look to them, the majority would probably work well in a clump or a forest.

Put the ones with shorter internodes near the back and the edges to create a stronger sense of foreshortened perspective.

 

[SeanS]

Some I planted in rows and others I just scattered into trays

 

[leatherback]

Some

Welcome to spring!

 

[toscgwsndiqz]

I have a fused clump with 5 seedlings that turns color in a progression over a month and and also leafs out in sequence- left to right....

 

[Shibui]

I have a fused clump with 5 seedlings that turns color in a progression over a month and and also leafs out in sequence- left to right....

I have a triple trunk trident with a similar cycle. Everything else is the same but one trunk starts a week earlier and finishes a week earlier than the others.

@SeanS No variation in the seedlings so far

 

[SeanS]

I have a triple trunk trident with a similar cycle. Everything else is the same but one trunk starts a week earlier and finishes a week earlier than the others.

@SeanS No variation in the seedlings so far

Amazingly all the cotyledons are exactly the same!

 

[rodeolthr]

Your seedlings all look very similar, even at this stage. Is the seed source the standard green acer palmatum?

 

[SeanS]

Your seedlings all look very similar, even at this stage. Is the seed source the standard green acer palmatum?

My source was a few different trees in a local botanical garden, but I’ve sowed the same seeds from each tree in the separate trays, so no mixing of seed sources

 

[penumbra]

I think that they are much more variable than has been suggested here depending upon the source. If from a regular green leaf tree you can expect very little variation but some is always possible. Same may be true for seeds from very old cultivars like Blood-good. The more crosses you have in its parenting, the more variability you will have in the seedlings.
I posted pictures a couple months back of the quite variable seedlings I have from this year.