JRP Question about seasonal change.

[Emeraldtarpon]

Hi Nutters,
Its late Autumn in Australia and i have a JRP that is dropping its inner needles (turn yellow and drop),which i think is normal?
What im wondering is...some of the new growth is also doing the same thing.
One or two of the new buds on the ends of the branches are doing it while the cluster of new growth around them is aok.
Its not happening all over the tree, only on the ends of maybe a third of the branching.
Is this normal or am i doing something that might be causing this like over or under watering (i tend to let the tree dry right out before rewatering), bugs maybe??
Thank you for your help guys

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Heres some photos

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

If it were a tree here, this would likely be a beetle attack.

@Shibui lives in Australia, he would be the expert to turn to..

cheers
DS sends

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

When did you make the cut circled in blue? The dieback (and adjacent budding) mainly looks like a result from that cut. Could be bad timing.

Hard to tell from the photos, but the spots in the red boxes look like they could be scale or fungal spores.

Otherwise, I wouldn’t be too concerned. Pines do drop inner needles in early fall.

 

[Shibui]

My JBP tend to drop older needles earlier, through summer.
Trying to count sections of growth to work out age of needles is more difficult when trees have been pruned but I'd be pretty confident that most of those brown needles are only 2 years and should not be dropping until next summer.
I would be looking at stress as a factor. The trouble with pines is they do not show stress until many weeks after the event by which time we have usually forgotten that we missed a couple of days watering. With the wet summer we have had it was easy to let them get a bit dry on the occasional weeks it did not rain. It could also be unseen root stress related to soil staying too wet, especially given we have had such a wet season down here.
Definitely check for pests and disease.
Also consider nutrient stress though my experience there is usually yellow needles rather than brown and drying.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

When did you make the cut circled in blue? The dieback (and adjacent budding) mainly looks like a result from that cut. Could be bad timing.
View attachment 487353
Hard to tell from the photos, but the spots in the red boxes look like they could be scale or fungal spores.
View attachment 487352
Otherwise, I wouldn’t be too concerned. Pines do drop inner needles in early fall.

Hi Brian,thank you for your reply.
The cut in the blue circle was made in November if i remember rightly.
That would be the last month of Spring here.
I hadnt noted the spots on the needles...i'll have to have a good look over the whole tree.
I always spray the new growth with a sulphur spray to try a give it some form of protection from needle cast but i think i may have missed a couple of applications.
Whether that helps or not, im not sure but i thought it might help.

 

[bwaynef]

What's the soil look like? The color of the green needles isn't what I'd expect it to be.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

My JBP tend to drop older needles earlier, through summer.
Trying to count sections of growth to work out age of needles is more difficult when trees have been pruned but I'd be pretty confident that most of those brown needles are only 2 years and should not be dropping until next summer.
I would be looking at stress as a factor. The trouble with pines is they do not show stress until many weeks after the event by which time we have usually forgotten that we missed a couple of days watering. With the wet summer we have had it was easy to let them get a bit dry on the occasional weeks it did not rain. It could also be unseen root stress related to soil staying too wet, especially given we have had such a wet season down here.
Definitely check for pests and disease.
Also consider nutrient stress though my experience there is usually yellow needles rather than brown and drying.

Thank you for your reply neil,i always appreciate your advice.
One thing i havnt checked for ages is the root system. The tree is quite pot bound and last time i looked,the roots were coiling at the bottom of the pot without any soil around them. They were still very healthy and plump but that was probably at the start of the growing season just gone.
Im not 100% sure how to water the JRP correctly, ive been soaking until water comes out of the drainage hole (making sure the soil is saturated) and then letting it dry again before rewatering.
Im watering the tree every day in the warm sunny weather we're getting at the moment, it dries out daily.
Otherwise,i only water the tree when dry.
I'll have a good look over the tree for any pest or disease and get on to that instantly if i spot something.
Im not sure how old the inner needles are but they were the oldest growth on the tree when i cut the branching back...i cut back into those particular needles to stimulate the new growth and try and get some back budding happening.
It budded up quite well and the new needles were half the size (still need to be smaller but a good reduction in one season).
There wasnt a lot of actual back budding,nothing really on the bare wood...all the new growth was produced from the older needles i cut back into, alot of it accumulating around the areas where i had back to.
The tree's feeding regime' has been a bit all over the place this growing season. I think at one stage i may have put some pellet feed on the tree that was high in Nitrogen...like 14%.
I just had a bad feeling and removed a lot of it...probably 2 days after application.
Thats about all i can think of at the moment...sorry for the wall of words neil and again,thank you.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Sorry typo
There wasnt a lot of actual back budding,nothing really on the bare wood...all the new growth was produced from the older needles i cut back into, alot of it accumulating around the areas where i had CUT back to.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

What's the soil look like? The color of the green needles isn't what I'd expect it to be.

Hi bwaynef,thanks for your reply.
The needle colour is actually my shit photography LOL. The colour is a lot deeper.
The soil is actually looking quite exhausted now. Its a bland grey colour when dry and looks and feels powdery to the touch (its solid but you can dig your finger into the top soil fairly easily).
The rootball is quite compact now but the soil doesnt hold moisture for as long as you'd expect.
Ive had pot bound trees that have held moisture for 1 to 2 weeks until the next watering is needed, not this one, if its warm and sunny (our last month of Autumn) the soil dries in one day.

 

[bwaynef]

I won't pretend to know what you have available for soil or what the weather's like there, but I've found that my JRP really likes a well-aerated soil, a good drenching, and being allowed to dry down a little. I use 1:1:1 AkaPumiLa and have been advised that more pumice might be in order moving forward. I'd show you the color on mine, but I had a spider mite attack that went un-noticed thru winter of '21 that really ruined the color on a lot of the foliage on my tree. (The old "green" needles are largely gray/dull.). The new growth from last summer (after decandling) is deep green though, which is what I'm not seeing on yours. The VERY tips of your green needles have a yellow tinge. If it were spring there that might be normal. Heading into dormancy that could be a sign of root issues.

Based on what you're describing of the soil and the roots last time you saw them, I'd definitely be planning on getting this tree into good soil and doing appropriate/good root work on it in the spring.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

I won't pretend to know what you have available for soil or what the weather's like there, but I've found that my JRP really likes a well-aerated soil, a good drenching, and being allowed to dry down a little. I use 1:1:1 AkaPumiLa and have been advised that more pumice might be in order moving forward. I'd show you the color on mine, but I had a spider mite attack that went un-noticed thru winter of '21 that really ruined the color on a lot of the foliage on my tree. (The old "green" needles are largely gray/dull.). The new growth from last summer (after decandling) is deep green though, which is what I'm not seeing on yours. The VERY tips of your green needles have a yellow tinge. If it were spring there that might be normal. Heading into dormancy that could be a sign of root issues.

Based on what you're describing of the soil and the roots last time you saw them, I'd definitely be planning on getting this tree into good soil and doing appropriate/good root work on it in the spring.

Appreciate your reply bwaynef.
I had several trees devistated by spider mite a few years back. That was in a semi-tropical climate and the damn things were a huge problem.
To be honest, that was the first thing that concerned me,the tips of the needles yellowing slightly. It didnt get any worse so i thought it was ok. I had thoughts of checking the root system but never actually looked (pretty silly as it only takes a sec' to look).
The first thing on the list this coming growing season is definately a repot...i think i probably should have done it last season with the issue that are appearing now.
Thanks again

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Here's some photos of the tree's root system...thought it might help.
Let me know what you think...id say a repot is a definate.
Ive uploaded full images for better detail.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My observations.

…roots look healthy.

….Ectomycorrhizae forming on the bottom on one side, much more than the other. Wondering surface is guiding most of the fertilizer to that side, then across the bottom.

….Needs repotting next spring, but you know that already.

….The media appears to be hydrophobic, as a result it looks like the water and fertilizer is not penetrating the core, instead it’s moving around and down at the pot edge. This is an issue imho.

We help solve the issue until a repot, by taking a long drill ( 1/8-3/16” dia ) and gently bore multiple holes 8-10 through the media. Start about halfway from the edge of the pot/trunk and drill slanting towards the core about 3/4 of the way. Let the drill find its way through the media. (I estimate the depth needed and put a piece of tape on the drill at the estimated distance up from the tip - then drill to the tape. This prevents striking the pot bottom.)

This will allow water and fertilizer to penetrate the media. Be sure to water thoroughly. The first time after drilling it might help to submerge the pot in a vat of water to soak the core.

Be consistent with your fertilization throughout the autumn and winter. There are many types of fertilizer. I’d recommend one with micronutrients.

Anyways, just my thoughts…

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

My observations.

…roots look healthy.

….Ectomycorrhizae forming on the bottom on one side, much more than the other. Wondering surface is guiding most of the fertilizer to that side, then across the bottom.

….Needs repotting next spring, but you know that already.

….The media appears to be hydrophobic, as a result it looks like the water and fertilizer is not penetrating the core, instead it’s moving around and down at the pot edge. This is an issue imho.

We help solve the issue until a repot, by taking a long drill ( 1/8-3/16” dia ) and gently bore multiple holes 8-10 through the media. Start about halfway from the edge of the pot/trunk and drill slanting towards the core about 3/4 of the way. Let the drill find its way through the media. (I estimate the depth needed and put a piece of tape on the drill at the estimated distance up from the tip - then drill to the tape. This prevents striking the pot bottom.)

This will allow water and fertilizer to penetrate the media. Be sure to water thoroughly. The first time after drilling it might help to submerge the pot in a vat of water to soak the core.

Be consistent with your fertilization throughout the autumn and winter. There are many types of fertilizer. I’d recommend one with micronutrients.

Anyways, just my thoughts…

cheers
DSD sends

Thank you for the detailed information DSD, its very helpful.
Ive got an old drill set somewhere that would be perfect for that.
The Ectomycorrhizae seems to be growing on the side of the root ball that is tight up against the wall of the pot.There is a small gap on the other side that runs about half the length of the pot. It's like the rootball shrank on that side but never returned to its normal position after watering.
I gave the tree a good soak in a container this morning, until all the bubbles stopped coming out of the root ball...it was totally saturated.
While waiting for the soil to drain, i gave the tree a good spraying with wettable sulphur (to the point of run-off) before placing it in the shade to dry off.
Sulphur is my go to as a general insecticide,fungicide and miticide.Ive always had good results with it and it has never damaged anything.
I'll have to follow a more balanced feeding regime as its been a bit all over the place the past growing season, which certainly wouldn't help.
I also gave the tree a good feed of seaweed emulsion and popped it out in the sun (glorious day...18C light breeze and full sun : )

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Sorry, i just realised the Ectomycorrhizae is on the side of the rootball that has a gap between it and the pot wall.
The side that is tight up against the pot wall is the side that has far less.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Sorry, i just realised the Ectomycorrhizae is on the side of the rootball that has a gap between it and the pot wall.
The side that is tight up against the pot wall is the side that has far less.
Sorry for the confusion.

If you have a look at the second photo, you can see that the top, left hand corner of the root ball is kinda missing and the roots below it have lost a bit of soil (looks like ants have been at it but they havnt).

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Drilling in this case is will help, yet won’t solve the issue. It’s a short term solution in your case. What will be more important is getting a decent media for the repot to transition to…over time. It will likely take two repots to do this right imho.

Not sure what’s used for media for in Australia. Many different types are used here, so that’s your call. Although I would advocate for adding Biochar or the like at 5-10% in any mix.

I’d say @Shibui would be the best go to for advice on this. You might want to PM him to see if a dialogue is possible.

As far as insecticides go, I’m more on the leaning towards organic methods. I’m finding out in my work at home and the museum that a heathy rhizosphere - tree system tends to not need many aides in that regard. However. I encourage folks to explore the options in this regard.
Good Luck,

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Clicio]

I live in the Southern hemisphere and my JRP always are yellowing by the end of our - very - wet summers.
I repot them every two years, keep fertilizing during the Autumn, and usually new growth in the Spring will.be OK - very green.

 

[bwaynef]

For the soil to shrink away from the side of the pot insinuates that there are watering/soil issues and further implies the core isn't getting the water it needs. No need to really harp as there seems to be consensus that this tree needs repotting. Based on those root pics and your description, I'd imagine good repotting technique and good quality soil components will go a long way toward improving the health of this tree.

What soil components are you planning on using? What are professionals near you using? How confident are you in changing out the soil on a tree where its not recommended/safe to bareroot?