JBP Winter Buds

[Walther]

Hello all,

I have looked around but havent seen anything on whether or not you are supposed to prune these buds in winter?
I know you typically balance the tree by decandling but these arent necessarily “candles”.

Just want to know if I should prune these now or wait until the start of spring?
I am just afraid that if I wait I will get reverse taper situation going on.
Also, from what I have read and seen am I supposed to cut the strongest ones or leave the strongest ones if the goal is to gain trunk thickness at this stage?

Thank you

Pictures attached.

 

[Wulfskaar]

If I'm not mistaken, I think May/June is the best time for that. You let those grow all spring and then cut back when the needle start emerging from the new candles.

EDIT: Seeing it's very young, you should maybe NOT decandle in May/June and, instead, let it grow.
EDIT 2: In May/June, I think you can remove all but 2 buds so it doesn't form a whorl there.

 

[Walther]

If I'm not mistaken, I think May/June is the best time for that. You let those grow all spring and then cut back when the needle start emerging from the new candles.

EDIT: Seeing it's very young, you should maybe NOT decandle in May/June and, instead, let it grow.
EDIT 2: In May/June, I think you can remove all but 2 buds so it doesn't form a whorl there.

I see

I have others that had a similar situation as this with its bud and I pinched and twisted off all but two on several others but then I started wondering if that was a mistake. I wonder what’ll happen with those.

I just didnt want to get whorl and reverse taper.
Thank you for the response.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I see

I have others that had a similar situation as this with its bud and I pinched and twisted off all but two on several others but then I started wondering if that was a mistake. I wonder what’ll happen with those.

I just didnt want to get whorl and reverse taper.
Thank you for the response.

No problem. I'm also growing a bunch of JBP and had all the same questions.

The ones you removed should be fine, I think.

I've been told numerous times to only remove or cut candles for specific reasons.
1. To avoid whorls of branches from swelling into knobs. Remove all but 2.
2. To control and balance growth in well-developed trees.
3. To encourage back-budding (cut below the candle base).
4. To force branching (cut just above the candle base).

I have used 3 and 4 to gain lower branching on some of mine, at the cost of overall growth.

Another edit!:
If you cut a candle above the base in May/June, it will create more branches. You let them grow all summer and then prune those down to 2 in fall.

 

[stewarjm192]

You need to know what you want in your tree before you should make any decisions. If you plan on making a small tree, I would thin that set of buds to the strongest, and start developing the upper section of trunk as an “escape branch”. Let it grow all Eason, then thin needles in the fall.

 

[Walther]

You need to know what you want in your tree before you should make any decisions. If you plan on making a small tree, I would thin that set of buds to the strongest, and start developing the upper section of trunk as an “escape branch”. Let it grow all Eason, then thin needles in the fall.

Thank you for the reply!

Right now I am trying to gain trunk thickness. So given that goal, its cool to pinch and twist off the undesirable buds right now?

 

[stewarjm192]

Thank you for the reply!

Right now I am trying to gain trunk thickness. So given that goal, its cool to pinch and twist off the undesirable buds right now?

Yes, I’d leave the two strongest and best placed. Leave the lower buds on the trunk as well.

 

[Walther]

Yes, I’d leave the two strongest and best placed. Leave the lower buds on the trunk as well.

Excellent! Thank you

Would you pinch and twist or prune/cut with a tool? (Does it even matter - Im willing to bet, like everything else, it does lol)

 

[Wulfskaar]

Yes, I’d leave the two strongest and best placed. Leave the lower buds on the trunk as well.

Why not leave them on? They will only help thicken the trunk. If the top is a sacrifice, then there's no need to worry about a whorl.

Early summer is a better time, I think.

 

[stewarjm192]

Excellent! Thank you

Would you pinch and twist or prune/cut with a tool? (Does it even matter - Im willing to bet, like everything else, it does lol)

I personally don’t think it does matter. When I do bud selection, I usually just use my fingers.

 

[Walther]

I personally don’t think it does matter. When I do bud selection, I usually just use my fingers.

Sweet!
Thank you very much

 

[Walther]

Why not leave them on? They will only help thicken the trunk. If the top is a sacrifice, then there's no need to worry about a whorl.

Early summer is a better time, I think.

Well the trunk isnt at the desired height so If i left them and they do whorl and create a problem I have less options for the height I think.. but im no expert thats just my line of thinking

 

[Shibui]

Well the trunk isnt at the desired height so If i left them and they do whorl and create a problem I have less options for the height I think.. but im no expert thats just my line of thinking

Taper in a trunk is just as important in pine as in maple. The best way to develop taper is to grow and cut to a side branch. That side branch now becomes the main trunk.
Your trunk currently has some nice curves down low then a straighter section leading to the upper buds. It also has some well placed lower side shoots but the straight section has no side shoots. There are currently needles in there that disguise the length and straightness of that part. Look forward, in 2 years those needles will be gone. Will your proposed design be Ok with that section bare and the next side branch growing from where the buds are now?

If that straight section is no problem. If the lack of taper is no problem or if you think you can develop lower sacrifice branches to build taper then by all means thin the new buds to manage bulge and to leave 2 buds for a branch and new trunk section.

If the above might cause problems, I'd leave the section above the wire as a sacrifice trunk. Maybe remove the side buds and leave the strong central bud to grow heaps this Summer and thicken the trunk. 2 shoots below will give a branch and new trunk. Advantages: trunk taper; shorter spaces between branches (much more important if the plan is to develop a smaller bonsai)
As trunk thickens, chop sacrifice branch just above the new branch and new leader junction.

Buds can be removed any time of year and by any method.
Decandling as a means to shorten internodes and develop short, neat needles should be done in Early Summer for best results. Decandling is almost exclusive to well developed trees where trunk size is good and branches in place. Decandling will definitely slow trunk development significantly.

 

[Walther]

Taper in a trunk is just as important in pine as in maple. The best way to develop taper is to grow and cut to a side branch. That side branch now becomes the main trunk.
Your trunk currently has some nice curves down low then a straighter section leading to the upper buds. It also has some well placed lower side shoots but the straight section has no side shoots. There are currently needles in there that disguise the length and straightness of that part. Look forward, in 2 years those needles will be gone. Will your proposed design be Ok with that section bare and the next side branch growing from where the buds are now?

If that straight section is no problem. If the lack of taper is no problem or if you think you can develop lower sacrifice branches to build taper then by all means thin the new buds to manage bulge and to leave 2 buds for a branch and new trunk section.

If the above might cause problems, I'd leave the section above the wire as a sacrifice trunk. Maybe remove the side buds and leave the strong central bud to grow heaps this Summer and thicken the trunk. 2 shoots below will give a branch and new trunk. Advantages: trunk taper; shorter spaces between branches (much more important if the plan is to develop a smaller bonsai)
As trunk thickens, chop sacrifice branch just above the new branch and new leader junction.

Buds can be removed any time of year and by any method.
Decandling as a means to shorten internodes and develop short, neat needles should be done in Early Summer for best results. Decandling is almost exclusive to well developed trees where trunk size is good and branches in place. Decandling will definitely slow trunk development significantly.

This is a great response.
Well I would ask, what would YOU do in my position?
I am interested in building trunk thickness and taper but I would like a medium sized tree not a super small one.

Also is there a graph or some reference sheet for all the JBP techniques and when/what stage you use them?
Theres so much info online, its just hard to figure out what season and stage to do them at.

 

[bwaynef]

This is a great response.
Well I would ask, what would YOU do in my position?
I am interested in building trunk thickness and taper but I would like a medium sized tree not a super small one.

Also is there a graph or some reference sheet for all the JBP techniques and when/what stage you use them?
Theres so much info online, its just hard to figure out what season and stage to do them at.

Seemingly, half the internet is devoted to JBP bonsai technique. Growing JBP for bonsai is a different game altogether than refining JBP bonsai. Half of that game is knowing those techniques. The other half is knowing when to stop ...and on what sections of the tree.

For refinement:
Spring, you CAN break vigorous candles if they're orders of magnitude stronger than the rest of them.
Summer, decandle and pluck needles.
Fall, cutback, wire, and thin needles.
Winter, for ultra-refinement, pluck needles back to counted pairs, with more pairs left as you go down the tree. Think 6, 8, 10 pairs for the top, middle, and lower branches. Those numbers can change.

For growing:
Sort the roots
Add movement
Establish a leader
Protect low buds
Cutback the low branching to prevent unnecessary/too-early elongation
Establish new leader

Once the lower sections start looking close to how you want them as bonsai, you can switch to more and more refinement technique.

 

[Walther]

Seemingly, half the internet is devoted to JBP bonsai technique. Growing JBP for bonsai is a different game altogether than refining JBP bonsai. Half of that game is knowing those techniques. The other half is knowing when to stop ...and on what sections of the tree.

For refinement:
Spring, you CAN break vigorous candles if they're orders of magnitude stronger than the rest of them.
Summer, decandle and pluck needles.
Fall, cutback, wire, and thin needles.
Winter, for ultra-refinement, pluck needles back to counted pairs, with more pairs left as you go down the tree. Think 6, 8, 10 pairs for the top, middle, and lower branches. Those numbers can change.

For growing:
Sort the roots
Add movement
Establish a leader
Protect low buds
Cutback the low branching to prevent unnecessary/too-early elongation
Establish new leader

Once the lower sections start looking close to how you want them as bonsai, you can switch to more and more refinement technique.

Thank you for this explanation
Its excellent!

Would you mind giving me some pointers on this tree?

I didnt wire it because it was mostly an experiment to see how it would grow with this soil and pot. But now it seems to have potential.

the “issue” is these three smaller branches on the bottom. What would you do in this case? I have no vision or plan for this tree so I’d be down to take any and all advice on what to do with it from here.

 

[bwaynef]

Pluck the needles circled. Remove the largest branch of the 3 at the bottom. Preserve the needles and branches that remain. Wire movement, likely incorporating the bottom branch on the right as being on the outside of a curve. Encourage the top to grow as a leader without shading anything below it. Careful wiring so that you don't knock off any branches/needle pairs.

If things go well, the other low branch will likely not have any room in the final design, but I'd hang onto it to help invigorate the tree for a year or so.

 

[Walther]

Pluck the needles circled. Remove the largest branch of the 3 at the bottom. Preserve the needles and branches that remain. Wire movement, likely incorporating the bottom branch on the right as being on the outside of a curve. Encourage the top to grow as a leader without shading anything below it. Careful wiring so that you don't knock off any branches/needle pairs.

If things go well, the other low branch will likely not have any room in the final design, but I'd hang onto it to help invigorate the tree for a year or so.

Awesome!
Ill do that after this weeks cold front.
If you dont mind my asking what is the purpose for removing those needles?


Thank you!

 

[bwaynef]

Buds are most easily induced to shoot from within a pair of needles. Removing them helps ensure you control where new buds form. Those needles also shade growth below, which weakens it. The strong bud at the top will do a good job of controlling the growth of the low branches, but giving those low branches more light helps them to be stronger, which you'll need later when you start to develop them.

Also, I can't recommend strongly enough that you check out what http://bonsaitonight.com has to say about developing JBP. If you REALLY want to go deep, bonsaify has a course on developing shohin jbp w/ examples of what to do from seed to (near-) finished trees.

Check out the shohin JBP contest on bonsainut that just finished recently for more examples as well.

6-10 years is pushing it for show-quality shohin jbp from seed. If you want larger than shohin, add more years developing it.

 

[Walther]

Just bought, signed up and am about 1 hr in into the bonsaify JBP course.
Thank you for the suggestion.