JBP vs Scots Pine: which to ground grow?

[Ply]

I'm planning on putting a few young pines in the ground next spring. Probably gonna for three total: 2 intended for medium size bonsai, and 1 shohin size. Using the Telperion farms approach, long leaders, restricted root growth, you know the drill..

Just wondering whether I should go with Scots pine or JBP. Young Scots material is readily available for me. Seedlings pretty much grow along the sidewalk here. JBP I'd have to order from a bonsai nursery.

Some, like Walter Pall, argue that Scots are the way to go in Europe. On the other hand, JBP have the two flushes, and the amount of literature on JBP vastly exceeds literature on scots pine. And JBP do seem significantly more vigorous than Scots in some of the threads from the 6 year pine challenge.

Which would be the best to go with, Scots pine or JBP?

 

[Berra]

Maybe you will get two flushes in your climate, here up north we typically don't

Also JBP winter hardiness is a major problem for me here, maybe doesn't apply to you

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Maybe try the pine that everyone seems to forget about? Japanese red pine. Two flushes and more cold weather tolerant than black pine.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

And JBP do seem significantly more vigorous than Scots in some of the threads from the 6 year pine challenge.

The 6 year JBP challenge is.. JBP only. So the comparison is a bit crooked.
My scots pines seem to grow as fast as JBP/JRP when given enough room.

I dropped JBP entirely because they hate winters and they hate water. Scots pines seem to be OK with both, and they can even be forced to double flush. But a double flush only happens when you cut back the first flush, thus reducing the overall growth rate.

In 3 years time I've killed 200 JBP seedlings by watering and keeping them unprotected outside. In that same time span I haven't killed a single scots pine seedling.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

I dropped JBP entirely because they hate winters and they hate water.

Interesting, I’ve found JBP to be quite thirsty, they just like to dry out in between waterings

 

[Ply]

The 6 year JBP challenge is.. JBP only. So the comparison is a bit crooked.
My scots pines seem to grow as fast as JBP/JRP when given enough room.

I dropped JBP entirely because they hate winters and they hate water. Scots pines seem to be OK with both, and they can even be forced to double flush. But a double flush only happens when you cut back the first flush, thus reducing the overall growth rate.

In 3 years time I've killed 200 JBP seedlings by watering and keeping them unprotected outside. In that same time span I haven't killed a single scots pine seedling.

The challenge is originally JBP, but there was (at least) one participant who did both Scots and JBP. After a little digging I found the topics from @Ryceman3.

Ryceman3 JBP 6 yr challenge
Ryceman3 Scots pine 6 yr challenge

Quite a significant difference in vigour.

Edit:fixed one of the links

 

[Ply]

I dropped JBP entirely because they hate winters and they hate water. Scots pines seem to be OK with both, and they can even be forced to double flush. But a double flush only happens when you cut back the first flush, thus reducing the overall growth rate.

In 3 years time I've killed 200 JBP seedlings by watering and keeping them unprotected outside. In that same time span I haven't killed a single scots pine seedling.

I'm surprised. I knew JBP to be a little weaker than Scots, but didn't know JBP had such a hard time in our climate. Would make Scots the more logical choice.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Jbp has a hard time in my yard/hands and our climate. There's this one Dutch dude who seems to grow them perfectly fine.
JRP seems to do better in my hands, and also seems to be more tolerant to cold and overwatering.

But climate wise, Ryceman is in Australia, but over here I've seen that they grow almost at the same speed for the first two years (my jbp never lasted longer than 3).
All things considered, scots is way more cold tolerant and has a longer overall 'active' season compared to JBP. My jbp start growing about a month after the scots pines, and they stop sooner than the scots too.

For what it's worth: in most German garden centers or online stores, you can find JBP for about 6-8 euros. If you aren't as terrible with JBP as I am, then you can try both and see for yourself. While you're at it, see if you can find pinus sylvestris var. Norsk typ / norwegian type. They backbud as good as JBP.

 

[Ryceman3]

The challenge is originally JBP, but there was (at least) one participant who did both Scots and JBP. After a little digging I found the topics from @Ryceman3.

It's true, I started several pines from seed at the same time as the 6 yr JBP competition.
P. Sylvestris, P. Nigra and P.Densiflora as well as P. Thunbergii. There are only threads for the JBP and the Scots.
I think you need to take the results with a grain of salt. I agree I have seen much more advancement in the JBP, but they are a double flush pine (sometimes triple for me) and I have a fairly mild climate in comparison to other parts of the world. We are just coming out of what would be described as a cold winter here and the lowest temperatures at my place dropped to 2deg celsius maybe 3 or 4 times overnight.... which wouldn't be considered cold elsewhere. My summer conditions are generally hot (several days of 40deg+) and rather dry, and I have found methods of looking after JBP in particular that maximise this. Maybe Scots pine could also be as succesful, I just haven't found the exact right formula yet, and being single flush means there is less margin for error because there are less chances to experiment. I think the Scots are developing fine (it's just the JBP are developing better), probably need to update the thread soon as they have advanced I think since my last post.
Having said that, there's nothing stopping you from experimenting. If Scots pine are endemic to your region, it makes sense to look at them as a candidate as they are clearly succesful in your environment. If JBP are relatively cheap why not dabble with a few and see if you can make it work and as @Adam D says, JRP are a double flush pine that are from the foothills in Japan rather than the coastline ... so are adapted to colder temperatures that better resemble the environment you encounter.... and then there's P. Nigra which is maligned somewhat in the bonsai world I think but I am hopeful.
Good luck with it whichever way you decide to go. I would look to plant a few of each variety/varieties you pick just to hedge your bets.

 

[Shibui]

My experience, also in Australia, is JBP grow far faster than Scots. So much so that I no longer bother with Scots pine here.

I think the main reason for European growers recommending Scots is access to yamadori with the wildness and trunks you just can't grow in a pot or grow bed but you should also consider that native trees are acclimatized to local conditions so should survive well, even if they don't grow as fast.

Definitely much more written about JBP than any other species but that too has a downside with lots of conflicting and ambiguous info, often just regurgitated by people who have heard but have little practical or long term experience.

Also interested to hear that @Wires_Guy_wires finds JRP tolerant of overwatering. JRP are the first to die here if I use too much water.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Also interested to hear that @Wires_Guy_wires finds JRP tolerant of overwatering. JRP are the first to die here if I use too much water.

Man I hear that a lot! But for me those JRP's are about the only japanese variety that do well.
I have nine different families of pines.
JRP is my number one, it performs the best. Scots and rigida take the second place.

 

[casun]

Why “or”? Try both.

 

[sorce]

Why “or”? Try both.

2 ply two try to try.

Aye.

Speed ain't sh....

What is the normal, natural, uncut growth habit for JBP?

Asking for a friend.....but seriously.

Sorce

 

[MaciekA]

I have telperion black pines. I have telperion scots pines. Both species produce amazing results in the ground using telfarms-style methods.

If I lived in the Netherlands, I would go with Scots pine, mainly because I perceive "anything much farther north than Vancouver BC" as not great for JBP decandling.

 

[penumbra]

For me it is Scots pine. I do have a few black, red and white Japanese pines. It is simply that I feel Scots pines are sturdier and take more abuse. They are certainly very drought tolerant in my experience.

 

[Paradox]

I have both scotts pine and JBP.
I have a particular fondness for scotts pine over JPB. My climate is perfect for JBP but I seem to do better with the scotts pine. They are just bullet proof for me and I agree with penumbra in that they seem tougher.

I struggle to get short needles on my JPB whereas I dont with my scotts.