JBP styling advice needed.

[Deleted member 49943]

I recently acquired a 5 gallon bare root Japanese Black Pine tree. I put in a 7 gallon short pot. The trunk at its biggest is about 3/4" wide its about 4' tall.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If it was bare rooted, give it at least a year before any styling. It needs some recovery time.

 

[Deleted member 49943]

Sounds like a plan. By bare root I mean it was potless with about 3 gallons worth of rootmass and soil wrapped. Very dense rootmass looks like it was originally grown in a fabric pot of some sort.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Shipping and handling will probably have done some damage, so I think it's wise to not touch those roots for a while, or put any strain on them by wiring.
Maybe you can make a sketch of the tree and see how you're going to put direction in it. Select some branches on paper and wait until it shows good signs of health in your care.

 

[Shibui]

Agree with taking it slow with pines but there are plenty of things to think about and plan for.
1. Branch whorls - it is normal for pines to grow a few branches at each point on the trunk but those clusters cause the trunk to thicken at that point giving inverse taper. Plan to remove extras leaving 1 or 2 at each level.
2. Taper - Also normal for young trees to grow fast so the trunk has very little taper. Not so good for bonsai as we like to see them. The usual way to overcome lack of taper is a trunk chop and use a lower side branch to replace the thicker trunk. Often when developing pines for bonsai the main trunk is used as a sacrifice branch to thicken the lower trunk then eventually chopped off above a low branch which is then used as the new trunk. My guess is that you will use one of those lowest group of branches as the future trunk of your bonsai and another of that group as the first branch but that will depend on the size and shape of the bonsai you want to develop. Those branches may be a bit low for the bonsai you plan.
3. Needle senescence - JBP needles normally have a 3 year lifespan then they turn yellow and drop off leaving that section of the branch bare. Pines can grow new buds from each pair of healthy needles but much less likely to grow buds from bare sections. We need to plan and prune to get more shoots from those sections with needles before they fall at 3 years old.

Next spring will be a good time to prune this pine to manage the above. The tree should have recovered from the recent changes by then.

 

[Deleted member 49943]

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Agree with taking it slow with pines but there are plenty of things to think about and plan for.
1. Branch whorls - it is normal for pines to grow a few branches at each point on the trunk but those clusters cause the trunk to thicken at that point giving inverse taper. Plan to remove extras leaving 1 or 2 at each level.
2. Taper - Also normal for young trees to grow fast so the trunk has very little taper. Not so good for bonsai as we like to see them. The usual way to overcome lack of taper is a trunk chop and use a lower side branch to replace the thicker trunk. Often when developing pines for bonsai the main trunk is used as a sacrifice branch to thicken the lower trunk then eventually chopped off above a low branch which is then used as the new trunk. My guess is that you will use one of those lowest group of branches as the future trunk of your bonsai and another of that group as the first branch but that will depend on the size and shape of the bonsai you want to develop. Those branches may be a bit low for the bonsai you plan.
3. Needle senescence - JBP needles normally have a 3 year lifespan then they turn yellow and drop off leaving that section of the branch bare. Pines can grow new buds from each pair of healthy needles but much less likely to grow buds from bare sections. We need to plan and prune to get more shoots from those sections with needles before they fall at 3 years old.

Next spring will be a good time to prune this pine to manage the above. The tree should have recovered from the recent changes by then.

Thanks for the amazing write up. I'm gonna just let it chill until spring. Do you have any pine specific organic fertilizer you recommend. For spring.

 

[Shibui]

Pines are not fussy and none of them can read the labels on packets. All they are really interested in is nutrients and all fertilizer has nutrients. Use whatever fert you give other trees.

 

[Deleted member 49943]

Up date added a bend and removed some unnecessary growth. Now it's just gonna grow out until early summer.

 

[Balbs]

We need to plan and prune to get more shoots from those sections with needles before they fall at 3 years old.

@Shibui , should we take this to mean that we should be cutting back hard every three years so we don’t lose the opportunity to back bud at these old needle pairs before they drop off?

 

[Shibui]

should we take this to mean that we should be cutting back hard every three years so we don’t lose the opportunity to back bud at these old needle pairs before they drop off?

That's my strategy - unless you have some well placed side shoots or low shoots that can replace the entire section.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Cut back to first whorl in hope to force budding below this.. Drastic cut back quickest way to get back budding. Once seasons growth has happened Spring 24 and hoped for lower buds developed then can use one branch for future sacrifice, another for possible apical trunk. last branch for actual branch. Current trunk is stovepipe with no branches and of little use.

 

[Deleted member 49943]

Zone 9a can I chop that part off now. Or should I wait?

 

[Shibui]

Zone 9a can I chop that part off now. Or should I wait?

You can cut any time you like. Pruning above some live branches won't kill a JBP.
The real question is whether that's a sensible move at this stage and the answer to that question depends on what your aims and ambitions are for the tree.

 

[Deleted member 49943]

You can cut any time you like. Pruning above some live branches won't kill a JBP.
The real question is whether that's a sensible move at this stage and the answer to that question depends on what your aims and ambitions are for the tree.

At the moment I just wanna grow trunk and backbuds lower. How best to achieve that? Thanks in advanced.

 

[brentwood]

You might want to take a beat here - you just repotted this tree. Reading thru this thread today, I was a little surprised when I saw the trunk bending, much more surprised when I saw the cuts - a chop now really seems like a lot, at least to me. Letting it grow a season untouched should at be something you consider now. Let it get strong again. Nice material, hate to see it backslide on you. Good luck!

 

[Shibui]

At the moment I just wanna grow trunk and backbuds lower. How best to achieve that? Thanks in advanced.

The usual strategy for thickening trunks is to leave a large sacrifice branch - often the main trunk - to grow for several years. I've seen some with the main trunk over 6' tall. Remove most older needles from the sacrifice section of the trunk to put more energy into the low branches and so they are not shaded. Meanwhile trim and manage the lower branches to stop them getting too long and leggy. That's where your future bonsai will be when the sacrifice trunk is chopped.
Growth builds wood so thickens the lower trunk. Pruning limits energy collection so also limits wood production and thickening.

Look for some threads by @River's Edge He grows many JBP this way and has posted advice and photos to help others here.

 

[River's Edge]

At the moment I just wanna grow trunk and backbuds lower. How best to achieve that?

The best way to achieve that is to stop doing what you are doing and change directions.
1. Wire the upper trunk portion back up to become the apical leader. With it wired down the thickening will be much slower.
2. Allow the tree to return to health and produce more foliage. This is critical if you wish to produce branching lower on the trunk. My general observation is that the lower portion needs more growth to retain health and vigour.
3. The first whorl has three branches at this point. One will become a new sacrifice branch in the future. One will become the new apical leader with a change of direction and introduction of taper. The third can be used as a lower primary branch or additional sacrifice branch in the future if sufficient back budding creates other choices lower on the trunk,

It is useful to bend sacrifice leaders and branches away from the trunk line. This allows for improved aesthetics when removed. Plan the bends so remove is on the back or side of the intended design. The tips of sacrifice branches and sacrifice leaders should be upward in direction for best growth results. Pines are apically dominant.
It is key to understand that a very healthy and vigorous tree will respond best to cut back. However the results will also improve if the cut back occurs with appropriate timing.

Perhaps these pictures will assist my explanation. Note that when sacrifice branches or leaders are remove their will only be one branch per
whorl except where the trunk changes direction and adds taper. in this case the second branch becomes the trunk and does not cause
a problem with the developing design. hope the comments and pictures help.