JBP seedling cuttings

[cmeg1]

Has anyone tried to get a few month early start in a propogator with 18 hours or so T5 light for the early stages of JBP seedling cuttings?
I was thnking using course soil types and sand and keeping vents open with a fan over the dome without misting.I would have to keep from damping off when they first sprout.
Then I could start maybe in January.

 

[cmeg1]

I’m a sucker.Going to have to give this a try.
Damping off when they first sprout seems the real concern.It seems once they get past the succulent stage they are good to go though.

 

[bonhe]

I wonder what is the difference between JBP seedling cutting and not cutting!?
Thụ Thoại

 

[cmeg1]

I wonder what is the difference between JBP seedling cutting and not cutting!?
Thụ Thoại

I believe I read that sometimes seedling cuttings have too many roots when the tree matures!
Though it would make a more compact tree with lower branching....if I am correct.

 

[River's Edge]

I believe I read that sometimes seedling cuttings have too many roots when the tree matures!
Though it would make a more compact tree with lower branching....if I am correct.

Both comments are correct, the first condition is corrrectable and allows for creating more uniform nebari if that is desired! The more compact tree with additional lower branching can be advantageous for some styles and growth patterns. It can also create issues if undesireable lower branches are left on for too long in certain designs.
I think the main advantage is the creation of additional options for design and sacrifice branches for other purposes in development such as healing scars and thickening.
JBP growers recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the seedling cutting approach. They are similar to most aspects of this hobby, in the right hands the techniques provides advantages, misunderstood or misapplied the results can create problems.
There are other techniques to encourage better nebari during repotting in the growth formative years, just as there are other techniques for creating lower branching options. The seedling cutting technique is simpler and often more effective if used and developed subsequently in a thoughtful manner. The end result is a combination of technical application and thoughtful adjustment within each situation to achieve the desired result.
The disadvantage to seedling cutting appears to be the misunderstanding that this technique alone will create amazing results when in fact it simply can create more options which require more decisions and skills to deal with appropriately.

 

[cmeg1]

Both comments are correct, the first condition is corrrectable and allows for creating more uniform nebari if that is desired! The more compact tree with additional lower branching can be advantageous for some styles and growth patterns. It can also create issues if undesireable lower branches are left on for too long in certain designs.
I think the main advantage is the creation of additional options for design and sacrifice branches for other purposes in development such as healing scars and thickening.
JBP growers recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the seedling cutting approach. They are similar to most aspects of this hobby, in the right hands the techniques provides advantages, misunderstood or misapplied the results can create problems.
There are other techniques to encourage better nebari during repotting in the growth formative years, just as there are other techniques for creating lower branching options. The seedling cutting technique is simpler and often more effective if used and developed subsequently in a thoughtful manner. The end result is a combination of technical application and thoughtful adjustment within each situation to achieve the desired result.
The disadvantage to seedling cutting appears to be the misunderstanding that this technique alone will create amazing results when in fact it simply can create more options which require more decisions and skills to deal with appropriately.

Excellent,thanks for reply.
I like the idea of lower sacrifice branching too if I would want to thicken the base.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Has anyone tried to get a few month early start in a propogator with 18 hours or so T5 light for the early stages of JBP seedling cuttings?
I was thnking using course soil types and sand and keeping vents open with a fan over the dome without misting.I would have to keep from damping off when they first sprout.
Then I could start maybe in January.

I did it.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-winter-seed-experiment.21278/

 

[River's Edge]

Excellent,thanks for reply.
I like the idea of lower sacrifice branching too if I would want to thicken the base.

The lower branching is the key as far as i am concerned when considering the value for development and design. These pictures show what is possible. They focus on the first 12 to 14 inches of each tree. Note the variation in size and quantity of lower branching, coupled with nebari. The bases are currently 2-21/2 inches. Instead of starting out with defined limitations, one has limitless possibilities. The Bonsai artist is the limiting factor not the material. In the second picture you can note that a larger branch higher up has been selected for the next sacrifice apex and wired in position to prepare for cut back of the current sacrifice leader. An even smaller branch nearby is in position for the next sacrifice leader after the second is removed. This will keep the scars to a minimum for healing rather than waiting for the trunk in that area to get thicker and dealing with huge scars for the final product. The process will be repeated until the base trunk is the desired thickness and the movement and taper is reached.

 

[cmeg1]

I did it.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-winter-seed-experiment.21278/

Cool,Im working now,but you had good results!
What light did you use? if I may inquire.
Im looking at LED and CMH at the moment with local hydro guy.
Awesome job!

 

[bonhe]

The lower branching is the key as far as i am concerned when considering the value for development and design. These pictures show what is possible. They focus on the first 12 to 14 inches of each tree. Note the variation in size and quantity of lower branching, coupled with nebari. The bases are currently 2-21/2 inches. Instead of starting out with defined limitations, one has limitless possibilities. The Bonsai artist is the limiting factor not the material. In the second picture you can note that a larger branch higher up has been selected for the next sacrifice apex and wired in position to prepare for cut back of the current sacrifice leader. An even smaller branch nearby is in position for the next sacrifice leader after the second is removed. This will keep the scars to a minimum for healing rather than waiting for the trunk in that area to get thicker and dealing with huge scars for the final product. The process will be repeated until the base trunk is the desired thickness and the movement and taper is reached.

I completely agress.
I can also create a lot of lower branches without trunk cutting ( just by wiring)
Any way, is there any disadvantage of having a lot of lower branches ? Thank you
Thụ Thoại

 

[Nybonsai12]

Cool,Im working now,but you had good results!
What light did you use? if I may inquire.
Im looking at LED and CMH at the moment with local hydro guy.
Awesome job!

I used 4 t5 bulbs. With a heat mat even in my cool winter basement things went ok. I spritzed with daconil to prevent fungal issues early on.

 

[River's Edge]

I completely agress.
I can also create a lot of lower branches without trunk cutting ( just by wiring)
Any way, is there any disadvantage of having a lot of lower branches ? Thank you
Thụ Thoại

The only disadvantages that i can think of are if one takes steps to preserve the lower branching that limits the design above that point, and/ or allows the additional branching to create issues for the other branches or trunk that are undesireable. More options can create more opportunity for error i suppose.
It does require a different set of techniques to manage the growth pattern of final design branches versus sacrifice branches.

 

[cmeg1]

The lower branching is the key as far as i am concerned when considering the value for development and design. These pictures show what is possible. They focus on the first 12 to 14 inches of each tree. Note the variation in size and quantity of lower branching, coupled with nebari. The bases are currently 2-21/2 inches. Instead of starting out with defined limitations, one has limitless possibilities. The Bonsai artist is the limiting factor not the material. In the second picture you can note that a larger branch higher up has been selected for the next sacrifice apex and wired in position to prepare for cut back of the current sacrifice leader. An even smaller branch nearby is in position for the next sacrifice leader after the second is removed. This will keep the scars to a minimum for healing rather than waiting for the trunk in that area to get thicker and dealing with huge scars for the final product. The process will be repeated until the base trunk is the desired thickness and the movement and taper is reached.View attachment 205398View attachment 205399View attachment 205400

Real nice work there!
I bought seeds.A lot of them.
I also invested in a very nice grow light and will try an extra early batch around January for seedling cuttings with some of the seed.
Would be nice to have all the cuttings settled and growing come Spring.
Just an experiment really.

 

[River's Edge]

Real nice work there!
I bought seeds.A lot of them.
I also invested in a very nice grow light and will try an extra early batch around January for seedling cuttings with some of the seed.
Would be nice to have all the cuttings settled and growing come Spring.
Just an experiment really.

The grow lights work well for shorter periods of time i find. I have started seeds beginning of January for stratification and kept them through to after stem cutting. I have always moved them out after they re-established roots. So i would time them to be ready to move outdoors after the risk of frost in your area. They do far better out in the sun and fresh air! When keeping them indoors under grow lights i found that air movement was needed to keep them healthy and prevent dampening off. I simply used a small computer fan to the side of the seedling flats. ( one that is normally used in a tower to keep the unit cool) Particularly for pine seeds i have not used any humidity covers in the germination stage.

 

[cmeg1]

The grow lights work well for shorter periods of time i find. I have started seeds beginning of January for stratification and kept them through to after stem cutting. I have always moved them out after they re-established roots. So i would time them to be ready to move outdoors after the risk of frost in your area. They do far better out in the sun and fresh air! When keeping them indoors under grow lights i found that air movement was needed to keep them healthy and prevent dampening off. I simply used a small computer fan to the side of the seedling flats. ( one that is normally used in a tower to keep the unit cool) Particularly for pine seeds i have not used any humidity covers in the germination stage.

Handy to know!
Thanks

 

[bonhe]

The only disadvantages that i can think of are if one takes steps to preserve the lower branching that limits the design above that point, and/ or allows the additional branching to create issues for the other branches or trunk that are undesireable. More options can create more opportunity for error i suppose.
It does require a different set of techniques to manage the growth pattern of final design branches versus sacrifice branches.

Thank you for reply. Yeah, I agree because if there are a lot of branches, it may make the owner of the tree be confused easily.
I believe the big disadvantage is that it may create the "critical areas" between them and the soil surface. These areas may be the source for insect and fungal infections.
I am not afraid the lower branches anyway, because they can not grow big due to the auxin suppression from the higher branches. If you aim for shohin, it will be different.
Thụ Thoại

 

[my nellie]

... ...I can also create a lot of lower branches without trunk cutting ( just by wiring)... ...

Hello, Thụ Thoại!
Could you kindly elaborate on that, please.
Thank you!

 

[bonhe]

Hello, Thụ Thoại!
Could you kindly elaborate on that, please.
Thank you!

I am sorry cmeg1 for disrupting your post. I wanted to answer my Nellie's question in other post, but I think it is better to write it here!
With the young seedling, when you wire and bend its trunk severely, there are a lot of new buds will be emerged right next to the lower aspect of the wire marks. The physiology principle is the imbalance between cytokinin and auxin hormone levels in this area. Please see my sketch.

Thụ Thoại

 

[bonhe]

With the young seedling, when you wire and bend its trunk severely, there are a lot of new buds will be emerged right next to the lower aspect of the wire marks. The physiology principle is the imbalance between cytokinin and auxin hormone levels in this area. Please see my sketch.
Thụ Thoại

and you can use the same approach to do air layering.
Thụ Thoại

 

[my nellie]

I am sorry cmeg1 for disrupting your post... ...

Yes, of course...
I apologize, too @cmeg1 and thanks for your understanding.

@bonhe Thank you very much for your reply, Thụ Thoại!