JBP candles in development ideas/suggestions

[Maiden69]

Hi,

Here are a few pictures of my JBP. The ones in colanders were acquired from Brent, the small one from Kaede-en during winter this year. They were not decandled. Are this normal candles for this time of year? I thought that JBP will develop a single flush if not decandled and develop small buds that will elongate next year. This ones have opened all this years buds, and the big ones are shooting this long green "candles" that appear to not have needles on them. I plan on moving both from colanders into grow bags and in the ground in spring, the little ones will probably be moved into RoR, and possibly grow bag or colander depending on how I feel when the time come.

Should I reduce every whorl to 2 at the end of November/December? So that energy is not wasted pushing growth there for spring?

The first picture is from late May or early June. The rest are yesterday.

 

[Shibui]

All look normal to me. in good conditions JBP will often have a second growth spurt and open a second set of candles as the one in pic 'JBP candle 1.JPG is doing. Those strong candles will have a bare section at the base (green part) and the new needles will eventually emerge from the upper brownish part. That sort of growth is normal for strong, healthy JBP in warmer climates. Candles will often enlarge through fall but then stop over winter before completing growth the following spring.

Decandling is a technique I reserve for well developed trees. Different techniques are used to develop younger trees like these but many 'experts' forget to mention the earlier stages because talking about decandling is way more cool.
Be aware that older needles will drop off each year in summer making the trunk and branches longer and bare. Getting back buds on bare pine stalks is difficult so you really need to prune proactively to make sure some lower shoots are available to chop to when the trunks have thickened.

Personally i'd leave all the new buds. More shoots does not waste energy it increases growth and thickness.
Multiple shoots, known as 'whorls' will create local thickening or reverse taper. In many cases those sections will just be cut off later when reducing height, improving taper or change of direction so no problem but if you think you might keep the section as part of the final structure then definitely remove extra shoots before they grow too big and create problems.

 

[Maiden69]

Thanks @Shibui I wasn't sure if it was completely normal. This is my second fall with JBP and last year the needles on the tree I had elongated and didn't push long candles like this in the fall. Just small to medium candle/buds like below. I am definitely not candle cutting this pines, as I want them to grow. But I was under the impression from what I read here and the podcast that Ryan did with the Telperion Farm owners that you still have to manage the lower portion so they don't grow too thick, and prune the sacrifices to push energy to the lower branches as well to prevent the tree from ditching them. I seen the pictures that @Adair M posted from Telperion and the sacrifices only have the current year elongating candle with maybe 1 or 2 extra candles and the rest below them until the developing part of the tree are cut off entirely.

 

[Shibui]

There always seems to be more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, even if it is a bonsai pine tree. Follow Adair's much used photo if you wish but there are other possible development options.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks @Shibui I wasn't sure if it was completely normal. This is my second fall with JBP and last year the needles on the tree I had elongated and didn't push long candles like this in the fall. Just small to medium candle/buds like below. I am definitely not candle cutting this pines, as I want them to grow. But I was under the impression from what I read here and the podcast that Ryan did with the Telperion Farm owners that you still have to manage the lower portion so they don't grow too thick, and prune the sacrifices to push energy to the lower branches as well to prevent the tree from ditching them. I seen the pictures that @Adair M posted from Telperion and the sacrifices only have the current year elongating candle with maybe 1 or 2 extra candles and the rest below them until the developing part of the tree are cut off entirely.


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Shibui is right that when growing/developing JBP, they’re not decandled. Decandling is a refinement technique used once you have your trunk and primary branches. Then start decandling to create ramification and short needles.

Telperion never decandled those trees in my “famous” picture. They DID cut the lower branches back! It was almost like they used Walter Pall’s “Hedge Pruning” method! Lol!!! There were branches and subbranches going every which way! So, once I got it, I did some selective pruning fir form, and used a lot of gauge 10 copper wire!!!

(They didn’t “hedge” it. But they did do a lot of “cutting back” which created lots of twigging!).

 

[Maiden69]

(They didn’t “hedge” it. But they did do a lot of “cutting back” which created lots of twigging!).

Thanks, I think this is what I meant to say. Chris and Gary said they would do some pruning to keep the lower portion in check and produce ramification.

 

[Maiden69]

Here are the JBPs as of yesterday. Is it too late to repot the little ones? The ones in pound baskets should be fine for another year, but I wanted to move the small ones into colanders/baskets this year and wire the one with the straight trunk. They are planted in akadama/pumice/lava.

Should I allow all the candles to grow this season and cut back to 2 on the small ones in the fall? And on the mid size, the main trunk sacrifice, also allow to grow then cut back to only one candle extending up like they look on the Telperion pictures, or is too early for that? The really started pushing candles this spring.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Is it too late to repot the little ones?

Normally so. Generally done just as buds break. Being small/young "MAYBE" would do OK if repotted. Why wait so late? Reason for bad wire scars on tree?

 

[Shibui]

Here are the JBPs as of yesterday. Is it too late to repot the little ones? The ones in pound baskets should be fine for another year, but I wanted to move the small ones into colanders/baskets this year and wire the one with the straight trunk. They are planted in akadama/pumice/lava.

I generally repot pines well after all the deciduous. Often that means the pines have elongating candles and that does not seem to worry them. The repotting window for pines is much wider than some would have us believe, especially in warmer climates.
Also note that you are planning to move these up into baskets which I guess will mean little root pruning so no problem repotting any time.

Should I allow all the candles to grow this season and cut back to 2 on the small ones in the fall? And on the mid size, the main trunk sacrifice, also allow to grow then cut back to only one candle extending up like they look on the Telperion pictures, or is too early for that? The really started pushing candles this spring.

The candles on sacrifice branches can be left alone to grow to add as much thickness as possible.
Manage candles on the keeper bits to maintain good size, internodes and avoid excessive thickening. That may mean removing some early. I'd take out stronger candles in favor of smaller ones with no 'neck' wherever possible. If all candles have long necks I'd decandle those at the appropriate time.
A couple of the smaller ones have no distinct sacrifice or keeper yet. I'd be managing those this season. Remove extra candles to avoid bulges in sections you may want later. Allow one to develop as sacrifice and keep another for the future bonsai. If necessary trim that one at appropriate time. Trimming at this stage does not always mean decandle. Candles can be cut in half to allow some extension and get new shoots at the end. Branches can also be chopped back into last year's needles to reduce elongation with that technique you can often allow keeper branching to grow for a year or 2 then chop back to get new shoots in better places.

Growing pines (and most other species) is not usually either/or. There are shades and nuances that can also be applied in certain conditions with certain outcomes in mind as above.

 

[Maiden69]

Reason for bad wire scars on tree?

That one was wired when I potted it in the basket, and when trying to give it some shape the trunk broke almost 75% through. In my lack of knowledge I used cut paste, wrapped it with grafting tape and wrapped thick aluminum wire to prevent it from breaking. I had no buds below the break, just a few needles. That will probably be the place where I make my first cut once I start removing the sacrifice, unless by some miracle the reverse taper created by the wire goes away.

Remove extra candles to avoid bulges in sections you may want later.

So I can select candles now in those areas? I will move them up with minor root work, they don't have any organic substrate that needs removing. I bought them as bare root seedlings from Matthew Ouwinga.

 

[Shibui]

Remove extra candles or branches whenever you suspect bulging is happening/ will happen. (no) Bulges in places you want to keep take precedence over growth - no point having a thick pine with reverse taper.
Removing candles or branches early or late will not endanger the tree.
Removing candles early may put extra growth into the ones left behind as the resources that were going to the chopped candles will now be shared between the remaining 2

 

[Maiden69]

I ended up repotting them yesterday. The two that were in the plastic 4" containers had their root teased, tips trimmed, and moved into 1-gal Rootpouches. When I was taking the one that was in the terracotta pot inside the small plastic container, I noticed that the roots were already extended into the terracotta pot and had circled the pot a few times. I had no intention of building an exposed root tree, but I think the roots did present an opportunity to do so. I carefully combed the roots out and placed them inside some damp paper towels while I look for something to create the tower for the roots to go in. I think I'm going to try to go with a slender literari with this one.

I used a plastic cup that I covered with Gorilla tape. The soil is Monto Clay from Bonsai Jack, pumice, and lava at 2:1:1. The part where the roots go above the Rootpouch is mostly pumice and a little Monto clay.

 

[Shibui]

I had no intention of building an exposed root tree, but I think the roots did present an opportunity to do so.

Some really great exposed root pines, especially smaller sized.
With this many roots close together it is likely you'll end up with a fused root mass rather than exposed roots. With a little luck the fused roots will provide a thicker extension of the trunk after they are exposed to air and the bark develops. Fused roots can give great lower trunk taper and usually have great character with hollows and ridges remaining from the individual roots.

 

[rollwithak]

Shibui is right that when growing/developing JBP, they’re not decandled. Decandling is a refinement technique used once you have your trunk and primary branches. Then start decandling to create ramification and short needles.

Telperion never decandled those trees in my “famous” picture. They DID cut the lower branches back! It was almost like they used Walter Pall’s “Hedge Pruning” method! Lol!!! There were branches and subbranches going every which way! So, once I got it, I did some selective pruning fir form, and used a lot of gauge 10 copper wire!!!

(They didn’t “hedge” it. But they did do a lot of “cutting back” which created lots of twigging!).

What about when trying to direct energy to lower buds that are smaller and weaker? Have a JBP that has a very long sacrifice branch that branches off into 4 additional branches. Each of those tips has around 7-9 new candles forming. The two lowest branches have candles coming out but they are VERY small. What can I do with this first flush to direct energy to the lower branches?

 

[Shibui]

Each case is different. No pics to check but sounds like your sacrifice branch is really strong with lots of branches. Maybe reduce to a single leader? Maybe all the branching is shading the lower shoots? As in many aspects of bonsai - it depends. Without seeing it is hard give specific advice.

It may be possible to reduce the strength of the sacrifice to encourage the lower shoots by strategic trimming while still allowing the sacrifice to recover and grow more later.

In some cases the sacrifice branch can be bent down to equal or below the smaller shoots. That allows change to auxin flow and the little ones should start to grow. After the smaller ones are growing better bend the sacrifice up again to allow dominant growth.

In other cases where there's no other way I would not hesitate to remove the sacrifice branch to allow the smaller shoots to gain strength. You can always allow a new sacrifice to take off from the shoots that develop from the low ones in coming years. Often a series of chops and grow will produce a better result as resulting scars will be smaller and earlier chops will have already healed by the time you move into ramification phase.

 

[rollwithak]

Each case is different. No pics to check but sounds like your sacrifice branch is really strong with lots of branches. Maybe reduce to a single leader? Maybe all the branching is shading the lower shoots? As in many aspects of bonsai - it depends. Without seeing it is hard give specific advice.

It may be possible to reduce the strength of the sacrifice to encourage the lower shoots by strategic trimming while still allowing the sacrifice to recover and grow more later.

In some cases the sacrifice branch can be bent down to equal or below the smaller shoots. That allows change to auxin flow and the little ones should start to grow. After the smaller ones are growing better bend the sacrifice up again to allow dominant growth.

In other cases where there's no other way I would not hesitate to remove the sacrifice branch to allow the smaller shoots to gain strength. You can always allow a new sacrifice to take off from the shoots that develop from the low ones in coming years. Often a series of chops and grow will produce a better result as resulting scars will be smaller and earlier chops will have already healed by the time you move into ramification phase.

I didn’t want to highjack his thread so I tagged you on my other thread for it

 

[Maiden69]

I was checking out some videos in YouTube about bonsai and this one showed up in my feed... I just finished watching it and all I could think off was the voices of "Nutters screaming never bareroot a pine! I think I'm not going to be too afraid to repot pines after seeing this.

 

[Shibui]

Climate may have some bearing on this but I certainly have no problems bare rooting black pines.
Some of the things written here are just regurgitated by growers who have never tried anything else so there's far more leeway in lots of aspects of bonsai than would appear from reading internet posts.

 

[Maiden69]

Climate may have some bearing on this but I certainly have no problems bare rooting black pines.
Some of the things written here are just regurgitated by growers who have never tried anything else so there's far more leeway in lots of aspects of bonsai than would appear from reading internet posts.

I love how he set the pines in lava, which makes it easier to transition into what appears like akadama/lava/pumice. That lava just fell off the roots without much work. If I could only get some in bulk... no luck close to me on either lava or pumice in bulk.

 

[Maiden69]

Another one of his videos... does anyone knows why the ring bark removed from the pines? I know those are sacrifice branches, but why not remove the branch? I thought once you remove the bark/cambium the upper portion will slowly die as it still receives water from the roots until the tree compartmentalize the section killing it. does it improve the healing allowing for a slow selective pruning by the tree? If so, wouldn't it be beneficial to slowly carve away the sacrificial branch instead of all at one? I think this may be something I would be interested in trying when removing the sacrifice from one of my pines.

Video starts at the pines section.