Japanese maples (cultivars?) from seed

[Shibui]

We often see posts asking about named cultivars grown from seed which promptly get replies (rightly) stating that cultivars can only be propagated asexually. Any seedling is the result of sexual propagation so has new combinations of genes and is therefore a completely new cultivar.
As illustration I germinated seed from Sangu Kaku (Coral Bark) last spring. Here's the results:

A box of Japanese maple seedlings.
It is true that some have similar red bark to the Sangu Kaku parent but when I look closer there's actually a range of shades. There's also a range of different growth habits. Some are tall and straight while others are weaker or have short internodes. Even the seedlings with red bark are NOT Sangu Kaku because each and every one has a new, different combination of genes.


For those who may be interested I estimated around 2/3 of the seedlings had red bark and was surprised when I unpotted, sorted and actually counted them. 64 have bark in various shades of red. 29 have greenish bark so just under half have missed out on the parent's red bark genes.
As I separated the seedlings I noted that the green bark trees generally have much stronger roots and took more effort to separate from the clump.

Of the 64 red stems 22 are very small, weak or spindly. While some of that may be attributed to crowding or other environmental conditions, many of those smaller seedlings will be genetically programmed for smaller size.

The point of this post is to reinforce that seedlings must not be given an existing cultivar name because even if they look similar there will be some different traits that make each seedling a unique individual.

That does not make any of these seedlings less valuable as bonsai. Any or all of them could be grown on and trained into great bonsai and many of these will be. I just won't be calling any of them Sangu Kaku.

 

[JesusFreak]

Obviously these were fresh seeds. When did you sow them ? How long did it take to germinate compared to others that you’ve done in the past ?

 

[rockm]

We often see posts asking about named cultivars grown from seed which promptly get replies (rightly) stating that cultivars can only be propagated asexually. Any seedling is the result of sexual propagation so has new combinations of genes and is therefore a completely new cultivar.
As illustration I germinated seed from Sangu Kaku (Coral Bark) last spring. Here's the results:
View attachment 494159
A box of Japanese maple seedlings.
It is true that some have similar red bark to the Sangu Kaku parent but when I look closer there's actually a range of shades. There's also a range of different growth habits. Some are tall and straight while others are weaker or have short internodes. Even the seedlings with red bark are NOT Sangu Kaku because each and every one has a new, different combination of genes.
View attachment 494160

For those who may be interested I estimated around 2/3 of the seedlings had red bark and was surprised when I unpotted, sorted and actually counted them. 64 have bark in various shades of red. 29 have greenish bark so just under half have missed out on the parent's red bark genes.
As I separated the seedlings I noted that the green bark trees generally have much stronger roots and took more effort to separate from the clump.

Of the 64 red stems 22 are very small, weak or spindly. While some of that may be attributed to crowding or other environmental conditions, many of those smaller seedlings will be genetically programmed for smaller size.

The point of this post is to reinforce that seedlings must not be given an existing cultivar name because even if they look similar there will be some different traits that make each seedling a unique individual.

That does not make any of these seedlings less valuable as bonsai. Any or all of them could be grown on and trained into great bonsai and many of these will be. I just won't be calling any of them Sangu Kaku.

Interesting stuff that is never really illustrated. I have some seedlings that grew from my landscape Arakawa. They have "Arakawa-ish" leaves, but not the lumpy bark.

 

[Rivian]

That does not make any of these seedlings less valuable as bonsai

I dont think thats quite right. Theyre worth less money than rooted Sangokaku cuttings or grafts.
Some of them will also be worse for bonsai because some characteristics are better than others, regarding internodes, leaf size, leaf shape, habit, growth rate, hardiness, color and so on.
Some of them could also be an improvement on Sangokaku of course, for the same reason, and, for bonsai, the fact they have a seedling root system without graft

Nice seeing some experimentation with seedling genetics, especially with numbers

 

[ajm55555]

Great explanation.
I'd add that cultivar means "cultivated variety", which means a particular variety that is cultivated in a way to keep the original genes.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Sango kaku is bullet proof, drought tolerant, air layers effortlessly, and handles full sun like a champ, but my goodness it's a difficult bonsai cultivar!

Something like sharp's pygmy is way easier. It just bonsais itself!

 

[Shibui]

Obviously these were fresh seeds. When did you sow them ? How long did it take to germinate compared to others that you’ve done in the past ?

I collect seed soon after the leaves fall and sow it soon after then leave the trays outside exposed to whatever cold we get through winter. Seedlings start to emerge early spring as the days start to warm up. No difference in time for this lot.

but my goodness it's a difficult bonsai cultivar!

I've also noted that. Long internodes and harder to get good ramification but there's always people willing to try because of the branch colour.

 

[erich_raudebaugh]

I've thought that it could be a valuable experience to grow JM cultivars from seed simply because there's a chance that some of the seedlings will work well as bonsai whereas the parent often doesn't. Or the parent is grafted stock that has to be layered, or is just too expensive or not easily available.

This spring I started a small batch of lace leaf JM but I'm not sure what the named variety is. They are from a neighbor's tree that has smaller leaves which reliably turn bight orange in the fall. Unfortunately slugs or something else ate most of them, but it should be a fun experiment.

 

[Shibui]

This spring I started a small batch of lace leaf JM but I'm not sure what the named variety is.

The whole point is that it doesn't matter what the parent's name is because all the seedlings will be brand new cultivars. You can even name each one. If one turns out to be extra special it could even be registered and marketed.
Many people find that lace leaf seedlings do not survive long. They seem to have very weak roots. Many of the lace leaf seedlings I grow die during the first summer. More die the following spring. One single plant survived for 12 years before finally dying but that's the only one from many hundreds that survived for more than a couple of years. In order to make sure they survived I started to graft promising looking ones onto stronger generic seedlings as soon as the stems were strong enough to handle and graft.
A friend grew a batch of weeping lace leaf from seed and used them as a bonsai group All slightly different but most are still alive 20 years later.
Not sure why some survive while most of mine die.
Good luck with yours

 

[erich_raudebaugh]

Well, that's disappointing to learn about the laceleaf varieties. Perhaps that was why my seedlings died off, due to weak roots rather than becoming slug food.
Only about half or so have dissected leaves, I wonder if it's genetic variation or the tree was cross-pollinated with a standard maple type.

 

[leatherback]

They have "Arakawa-ish" leaves, but not the lumpy bark.

I have a cross between a laceleaf and an arakawa going now. some 5 years in and the leaves are clearly more lacy (yet not true laceleafs) than arakawa, and the trunk is shwing clearly cracked bark in the first 5cm from the soil up

If one turns out to be extra special it could even be registered and marketed.

In a few years if this keep its characteristics AND if cuttings taken from it do too, this is my plan.

 

[Shibui]

Sango kaku is bullet proof, drought tolerant, air layers effortlessly, and handles full sun like a champ, but my goodness it's a difficult bonsai cultivar!

I've been working on this one for around 15 years. Not a lot to show for that sort of timeframe, even if the new shoots are stunning.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I've been working on this one for around 15 years. Not a lot to show for that sort of timeframe, even if the new shoots are stunning.
View attachment 494751View attachment 494752

All the ones I had looked like broom handles.

 

[cmeg1]

This is fascinating.Alot of times I am not interested in the cuttings process.
Seeds are fantastic…….magnolia,Korean Hornbeam are on my agenda around Autumn/mid-Summer……this will be an indoor winter grow of course.
The Korean Hornbeam thrive in these conditions…..maples not so much.
The Star Magnolia is a first for me,but they grow so nicely and are very durable…..I especially like the flowers blooming within 3 years.
I would grow Kobus Magnolia….something about waiting for 15 years for a bloom though is not cool to me.

The hornbeam will be around 1000 seedlings.. very interesting…..The magnolia seed is so expensive….not sure,we’ll see.
I hope the Star Magnolia are good germinating seeds…I cannot wait to fertilize them with co2 in a controlled grow environment…..way fun!

Where have all the Star Magolia gone?

Lost forever in Bonsai Today articles
No …….I probably should of just kept all the Bonsai Today’s I had.

 

[Rivian]

Shibui, would you take a look at that seedling box again and check the thickness of those with colored bark as compared to the others? Notice any patterns?
I dont know if its selected on purpose (probably is) or if there is a strong corelation, but the Red Twig cultivars often have unusually thick stems (ex: Red Wood, Wildfire. Japanese Sunrise).
For the Winter landscape this is preferable, but for bonsai it is not
So the variation youve had with this is quite interesting

Also, did they all have green bark during the growing season?

 

[Shibui]

Many Green bark seedlings in the box are substantially thicker than the colored ones.
I did not check on summer trunk color but only really noticed the bark color after the leaves fell so assuming these are like the parent in changing bark color for winter

 

[Mikecheck123]

One thing I'm noticing about JM seedlings is that it takes 3-4 seasons or more to actually see what it does at maturity. When they're young they tend to be green all year, and any fancier colors only emerge over time.