Japanese maple design

[Agriff]

My first non-nursery bonsai purchase, at an auction for $65.

Does anyone have any initial thoughts on what you would do with this? I love how straight the trunk is for a formal upright. Would you grow this out or try for a shohin?

I obviously want to strengthen some primary branches but I'm not sure how to go about that without upsetting the structure.

 

[HorseloverFat]

How did I NOT realize that that is Sudowoodo!

Cool maple!

For HOW uniform the bottom portion of trunk is... “going shohin” would basically mean first-branching it..And starting over, with a headstart on the base or else scale taper would be Ridiculously hard to attain..

I like your idea of shooting for formal upright..

Looks like you have a beefy lower branch, also. Good start on your first branch in an upright tree design...

Those more experienced with styling formal uprights will chime in with better/more specific advice.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Well.. I guess there IS a WILD swing shohin in there... you’d have to carve in when making your cuts.. it’d be HORRIFIC for your tree, aaaand It wouldn’t even produce THAT great of a specimen..


but I wouldn’t...

I wouldn’t try shohin-sized with this tree.. but If I DID... I’d first-branch it.. and “start over”

 

[sorce]

You found the right seller and the best of the 3 possibilities.

For a slamming deal enough to get passed that "might not make it" in my care stip too. It's actually good enough to step into the next stip for me, the personal responsibility stip, is it so good it would be irresponsible for me to make the attempt? Which moves into the next stip, is the next moron going to do it any better? This is the only "rescue" that I feel is ever worth "rescuing". Reckon it's good you rescued it.

The care taken to keep the branches of appropriate sizes is impressive, speaks to other care that makes this person a more responsible grower IMO.
But I don't think this tree's fullest potential will come from using these branches.

Makes it a rather difficult tree to ponder and design.

I'd ask @MACH5 what his move would be, and maybe come away with some cold weather pointers too.

Sorce

 

[Deleted member 32750]

I wouldn’t go shohin. I’d let that top wired leader thicken to build taper and movement. It’s a great looking piece of material in my opinion. I personally follow Bjorn's teachings with deciduous material so I’d consider planting in a wooden box next spring to develop a flat and radial nebari and I would not do any “trunk chop” as is commonly suggested on the site. Japanese maples have very thin bark so large cuts greater than about 2 inches are hard to heal and leave ugly scars. Take it slow with this one and I think you will be greatly rewarded.

 

[Shibui]

There are so many possibilities at this stage you will need to make some decisions about how long you want to work to develop a particular shape and what you really want.
Personally not really excited by formal upright for JM. That's not how they grow naturally IMHO.
Shohin is always possible but be prepared to take lots of time. The chop required will take a long time to heal and growing shohin (good) is not quite as easy as it looks.

The current trunk chop is terrible and will never heal well or give a good transition to the new leader. Experience tells me that angled chop is necessary for all deciduous. Sometimes the final cut is delayed for a year or 2 until the chosen new leader gains strength. The sealer looks new so maybe it is too early yet but more likely chopped by someone with only basic knowledge.

Note also the long internodes on many of the new shoots. That's common on new shoots after a trunk chop as the tree tries to reclaim lost growth but, unfortunately, long internodes make terrible structure for future branching. Most of those will need to be cut and grown again.

JM can make beautiful bonsai but developing good bonsai with JM is not quite as easy as most think.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

I wouldn’t consider that cut a trunk chop and it will definitely heal if treated properly.

 

[leatherback]

I wouldn’t consider that cut a trunk chop and it will definitely heal if treated properly.

what does treated properly mean? Other than of course, the angled cut.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

what does treated properly mean? Other than of course, the angled cut.

As I said I follow Bjorns teaching on developing deciduous trees and I have seen him make and heal cuts like this. The key is to only make really heavy cuts in the early summer as this is when healing is the fastest and limit the size of big cut you make to under 2 inches in diameter. I can’t tell exactly how large the cut is on your tree but it looks less than 2 inches. Don’t cut all the way back to a new leader but leave a stub for the cut to die back a little and put cut paste. The bigger the cut the longer the stub. Once it dies back it will start to callous on the live tissue underneath the dead tissue. Leave it alone for a season or so and allow the leader above the cut to thicken to expedite the healing. Then you go back in and flatten the cut and make sure it’s completely flush with the bark because if it’s not it will not heal flush. You should be able to run your finger over and it’s smooth. Seal with cut past and again let the leader thicken above to heal. You may have to score the callous periodically to reactivate the wound healing but if done properly Japanese maple wound can completely heal in 3-4 years.

 

[BobbyLane]

As I said I follow Bjorns teaching on developing deciduous trees and I have seen him make and heal cuts like this. The key is to only make really heavy cuts in the early summer as this is when healing is the fastest and limit the size of big cut you make to under 2 inches in diameter. I can’t tell exactly how large the cut is on your tree but it looks less than 2 inches. Don’t cut all the way back to a new leader but leave a stub for the cut to die back a little and put cut paste. The bigger the cut the longer the stub. Once it dies back it will start to callous on the live tissue underneath the dead tissue. Leave it alone for a season or so and allow the leader above the cut to thicken to expedite the healing. Then you go back in and flatten the cut and make sure it’s completely flush with the bark because if it’s not it will not heal flush. You should be able to run your finger over and it’s smooth. Seal with cut past and again let the leader thicken above to heal. You may have to score the callous periodically to reactivate the wound healing but if done properly Japanese maple wound can completely heal in 3-4 years.

this isnt a Bjorn technique specifically, its how japanese maples are handled the world over.
for those saying this would make a great formal upright i'd love to see some examples of japanese maples in formal upright form with broom stick trunks such as this one. or a progression on one to see how its done and how long it took.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

this isnt a Bjorn technique specifically, its how japanese maples are handled the world over.
for those saying this would make a great formal upright i'd love to see some examples of japanese maples in formal upright form with broom stick trunks such as this one. or a progression on one to see how its done and how long it took.

No he didn’t create the technique but he is an advocate for it and teaches it. I see too many deciduous trees on this forum that people throw in the ground and cut back to a stump. The scars just don’t heal normally like that and I think that’s why the quality of deciduous bonsai in America tends to lesser than other parts of the world.

but I’ve seen some incredible formal upright maple bonsai before. I’m trying to find pictures but they’re few and far between. They’re usually not entire straight but have that slight forward lean towards the top

 

[BobbyLane]

heres a formal trident i bought n sold with some gradual taper.
the maple in the first post would need chopping much lower to create anything close to this.


personally i would chop very low to build a broom of sorts


the small broom is the quicker way to achieve a presentable tree with the material you have. a well placed chop between two low branches will result in a scar that can only be seen from the top and would heal in no time.
Markyscott has a good thread on building small broom trees.

 

[leatherback]

Don’t cut all the way back to a new leader but leave a stub for the cut to die back a little and put cut paste. The bigger the cut the longer the stub. Once it dies back it will start to callous on the live tissue underneath the dead tissue. Leave it alone for a season or so and allow the leader above the cut to thicken to expedite the healing. Then you go back in and flatten the cut and make sure it’s completely flush with the bark because if it’s not it will not heal flush. You should be able to run your finger over and it’s smooth. Seal with cut past and again let the leader thicken above to heal. You may have to score the callous periodically to reactiva

I then do not understand your remark

it will definitely heal if treated properly.

As this is exactly what was being advocated, as in, it will not heal like this, you will need to angle the cut?

will never heal well or give a good transition to the new leader. Experience tells me that angled chop is necessary for all deciduous. Sometimes the final cut is delayed for a year or 2 until the chosen new leader gains strength.

Is it just me getting tire of hearn the samen 2 names being thrown around as the greatest in bonsai since hedge pruning?

 

[Deleted member 32750]

I then do not understand your remark


As this is exactly what was being advocated, as in, it will not heal like this, you will need to angle the cut?


Is it just me getting tire of hearn the samen 2 names being thrown around as the greatest in bonsai since hedge pruning?

I was replying to “The current trunk chop is terrible and will never heal well or give a good transition to the new leader.”

you don’t have to make the angled cut immediately when making a big cut and in fact it’s better not to make it immediately especially when cutting back to a smaller branch. That is what I was suggesting. To go back at a later time and smooth the cut out and let the leader elongate and promote the healing.

and I’m not suggesting that Bjorn is the greatest in bonsai but I personally trust his techniques better than anyone else in the west based on his work that I have seen. If you prefer the results of another professional you are certainly entitled to following their guidances and practices.

I think someone once said: find a teacher who’s bonsai you like and follow their practices

 

[Agriff]

How did I NOT realize that that is Sudowoodo!

Come on! Us millennials are in the minority here, you've got to fulfill your duty by knowing these things

Cool maple!

For HOW uniform the bottom portion of trunk is... “going shohin” would basically mean first-branching it..And starting over, with a headstart on the base or else scale taper would be Ridiculously hard to attain..

I like your idea of shooting for formal upright..

Looks like you have a beefy lower branch, also. Good start on your first branch in an upright tree design...

Those more experienced with styling formal uprights will chime in with better/more specific advice.

That makes sense! I don't think I want to start completely over and it's good to hear you think this could work as a formal upright.

You found the right seller and the best of the 3 possibilities.

Thank you! I'm pretty happy with this one

The care taken to keep the branches of appropriate sizes is impressive, speaks to other care that makes this person a more responsible grower IMO.

That's good insight!

But I don't think this tree's fullest potential will come from using these branches. Makes it a rather difficult tree to ponder and design.

I agree!

There are so many possibilities at this stage you will need to make some decisions about how long you want to work to develop a particular shape.

The short answer is as long as it takes!

Personally not really excited by formal upright for JM. That's not how they grow naturally IMHO.

What do you like to see?

Experience tells me that angled chop is necessary for all deciduous. Sometimes the final cut is delayed for a year or 2 until the chosen new leader gains strength.

This was my assumption

the maple in the first post would need chopping much lower to create anything close to this.

Even with a plan of growing out major sacrifice branches?

personally i would chop very low to build a broom of sorts

This idea *is* really appealing to me. I've always wanted a broom

 

[Shibui]

I wouldn’t consider that cut a trunk chop and it will definitely heal if treated properly.

I may not have been clear enough. Many beginners cut JM above a node like this one thinking it will need a side branch as well as a new leader. I have done it many times but always ends up badly. Callus from healing the cut, plus a growing side branch will quickly thicken the trunk at that spot leading to bad reverse taper. I have found it much better to cut through the node at an angle if the new leader is already strong. If not just chop above the node and wait for the new leader to gain strength then finish the cut removing the side branch.
The branch collar of the new leader will almost always produce buds to provide a side branch at that cut site to give you options for side branches without the thickening.

What do you like to see?

JM have a distinct natural growth pattern. The trunk splits into a number of rising sub trunks, almost shrublike. The tips of those sub trunks then flare outward to give the foliage planes we normally associate with branches. Done well this style can be magnificent for JM in particular.
Here's one of my crude attempts at this style:

You will find many better examples by searching pictures of Japanese Japanese maple.

This idea *is* really appealing to me. I've always wanted a broom

Broom is actually the deciduous version of formal upright and can suit JM styling.
As @BobbyLane has already said the trunk will need to be chopped lower - usually around 1/3 of the final height and new sub trunks grown up and out to create the basis for a canopy. Broom is the exception to the angle cut. Cut above 2 good branches and wire both upward. When they are growing strongly recut the chop as a shallow V to reduce swelling.

 

[BobbyLane]

I may not have been clear enough. Many beginners cut JM above a node like this one thinking it will need a side branch as well as a new leader. I have done it many times but always ends up badly. Callus from healing the cut, plus a growing side branch will quickly thicken the trunk at that spot leading to bad reverse taper. I have found it much better to cut through the node at an angle if the new leader is already strong. If not just chop above the node and wait for the new leader to gain strength then finish the cut removing the side branch.
The branch collar of the new leader will almost always produce buds to provide a side branch at that cut site to give you options for side branches without the thickening.


JM have a distinct natural growth pattern. The trunk splits into a number of rising sub trunks, almost shrublike. The tips of those sub trunks then flare outward to give the foliage planes we normally associate with branches. Done well this style can be magnificent for JM in particular.
Here's one of my crude attempts at this style:
View attachment 380590
You will find many better examples by searching pictures of Japanese Japanese maple.


Broom is actually the deciduous version of formal upright and can suit JM styling.
As @BobbyLane has already said the trunk will need to be chopped lower - usually around 1/3 of the final height and new sub trunks grown up and out to create the basis for a canopy. Broom is the exception to the angle cut. Cut above 2 good branches and wire both upward. When they are growing strongly recut the chop as a shallow V to reduce swelling.

Thats better than a crude attempt, thats a nice looking tree.

 

[Agriff]

Assuming I did want to work this tree for 30+ years, and wanted as @Shibui describes, a natural growth pattern for this maple. Say I wanted the apex to be where the current leader ends. Then what would the plan look like?

- Is it too late to build movement in this trunk, by growing out various sacrifice branches over the years?
- Given the 1:6 rule and the fact that the tip of the leader is at about 18", the base would need to be about 3" thick. Does that sound about right?
- Is it too early to think about growin out one of those lower branches to create sub trunks?
- Should I care about how thick branches are getting at this stage of the game, and/or internode length, or can I just feed and get that leader nice and strong?

 

[Shibui]

It is too late to get movement in the existing trunk but never too late to chop and regrow the trunk to get movement. Where to chop will depend on how much movement you want and where the first bend is to be.

Don't get obsessed with 1:6. Also there are no actual rules, just guidelines that can be adjusted according to need. JM are actually elegant trees rather than huge thick trunks so I believe they look better a little leaner than 1:6. Trunk diameter will come in time. Much more important to concentrate on shape of the framework and preventing bulges during development as JM are very prone to that.
This JM is closer to 1:6 trunk:height doesn't really show the elegance of the species IMHO.


This one shows the bulges that quickly occur if pruning is not first class. Extremely difficult to get rid of so prevention is best.


Now is the time to wire and shape any sub trunks - up and out. The tips won't matter at this stage as they will be cut and grown again several times for taper and ramification. Always remove long internodes from framework branching as you can only get back buds and ramification from nodes so nodes should be spaced at good distances for future branching.

Always consider how thick branches and sub trunks are in relation to the main trunk. Stop them well before they approach desired relative thicknesses because everything will continue to thicken, especially parts you don't want to!

There are many ways to achieve a similar result. A plan should have flexibility to change as a result of how the tree grows and which parts do better or worse. For a start I would wire and start shaping any lower branches. Remove those few shoots with long internodes and hope for better replacements (95% sure to get replacements for young shoots like that).
Let it all grow this summer.
Next winter/spring reassess to try to find a lower replacement for the main leader. Prune all main structural branches/trunks to improve movement, taper and to start some ramification.

Repeat until the desired structure is achieved then move to more frequent pruning to get finer ramification.

 

[Agriff]

Hmm. How do I delete a comment?