Japanese Black Pine back budding issue.

[Haidr]

Hello fellow bonsai enthusiasts. I recently got a JBP approximately 15 years old. There is very little back budding happening on the branches and some of the lower branches have just 4,6 needles on them. The tree is not being fertilised etc. My first pine tree and any help will be appreciated as back budding is critical for JBP bonsai from my understanding.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

as back budding is critical for JBP bonsai from my understanding.

Why?
There's enough shoots to make pads with.

We aim for back buds to replace foliage that has grown too far out and pushes away the design. Your plant is not at that stage, yet.

With proper fertilization in spring, and candle cutting in summer, we can try to get more back budding. But this only goes so far back, it is not a guarantee it will happen.

In pines, my goal is to have a healthy plant and a good design first, the back budding will either follow from the techniques applied, or not. If it doesn't, it should still be a good design without them.

If you see any weak branches, let those grow strong first and don't apply any techniques to them for a year. You can still work the rest of the tree as usual. This should balance the energy a bit.
JBP is the most described pine out there, bonsaify, bonsai empire, bonsai4me, Brian van Fleet and a bunch of other teaching platforms have good descriptions on how to work with them.

Good luck!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

It looks like most of last year’s needles have been removed, and 90% of what it has is current season growth. You should not remove any more needles this year, and I would recommend feeding it heavily to encourage back-budding on bare branches. Next summer, you can prune it in a way that will further encourage back-budding, but that’s a year away.

 

[Haidr]

Why?
There's enough shoots to make pads with.

We aim for back buds to replace foliage that has grown too far out and pushes away the design. Your plant is not at that stage, yet.

With proper fertilization in spring, and candle cutting in summer, we can try to get more back budding. But this only goes so far back, it is not a guarantee it will happen.

In pines, my goal is to have a healthy plant and a good design first, the back budding will either follow from the techniques applied, or not. If it doesn't, it should still be a good design without them.

If you see any weak branches, let those grow strong first and don't apply any techniques to them for a year. You can still work the rest of the tree as usual. This should balance the energy a bit.
JBP is the most described pine out there, bonsaify, bonsai empire, bonsai4me, Brian van Fleet and a bunch of other teaching platforms have good descriptions on how to work with them.

Good luck!

Thanks for the detailed response mate. A few of the lower branches just have very few needles on them, looks like they will die soon if the back budding doesn’t happen. I’m going to start fertilising from tomorrow and hopefully the trees will grow better

 

[Haidr]

It looks like most of last year’s needles have been removed, and 90% of what it has is current season growth. You should not remove any more needles this year, and I would recommend feeding it heavily to encourage back-budding on bare branches. Next summer, you can prune it in a way that will further encourage back-budding, but that’s a year away.

Thanks for the thorough assessment from the picture Brian. I understand what you are saying, won’t touch the tree as I have to learn about pines before I do anything. I have just ordered Miracle Grow fertiliser and another supplement with Kelp, Humic and Fulvic acids. These fertilisers should be okay?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Those fertilizers should be OK.
Maybe go easy on the kelp, humic and fulvic as they are supplemental. Do use them, but not as a main source of nutrients.

 

[Haidr]

Those fertilizers should be OK.
Maybe go easy on the kelp, humic and fulvic as they are supplemental. Do use them, but not as a main source of nutrients.

Copy that. Appreciate your help mate.

 

[OTown]

To add a bit to what Brian said about pruning, you will cut the new candle growth (1st week of December in the Southern Hemisphere / 1st week of June in Northern Hemisphere) leaving 2-4mm of new growth behind. You should get multiple buds growing at the cut site and you should also get back budding at that time. Do this ONLY if the tree is showing strong candle growth! If you don't have strong growth, you should continue to fertilize and let the tree continue to gain strength. Needle pluck to balance strength but never pluck all the second-year needles. The strength and long vigorous growth leads to back budding.

 

[Haidr]

To add a bit to what Brian said about pruning, you will cut the new candle growth (1st week of December in the Southern Hemisphere / 1st week of June in Northern Hemisphere) leaving 2-4mm of new growth behind. You should get multiple buds growing at the cut site and you should also get back budding at that time. Do this ONLY if the tree is showing strong candle growth! If you don't have strong growth, you should continue to fertilize and let the tree continue to gain strength. Needle pluck to balance strength but never pluck all the second-year needles. The strength and long vigorous growth leads to back budding.

Thanks for your reply. Got it mate. All this information really helps.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My take. Agree, tree is looking weak based upon loss of needle mass etc.

The tree seems to need a repot. Out here we call this a four year tree.

First up pot to larger container. Feed heavily. No candle cutting, no pruning. In fall only prune off excess bundles out of design. No needle thinning. Build strength year

Year two decades at appropriate time. Feed well. Same as one in fall. No needle thinning only as needed to open up light and shift energy. Should be strong backbudding.

Year Three candle prune appropriately. Minor late spring needle plucking to shift energy and keep build critical mass. Fall selective pruning to enhance design and shift energy, Needle pluck to shift energy allow light.

At this point one should have a healthy vigorous tree with plentiful backbudding and good energy balance.

Year Four. Repot into desired container. Candle prune as appropriate feed well. Late spring needle plucking to shift energy. Fall, wire prune and needle balance to achieve energy balance . design.

Tree should look uber good quite possibly ready to get close to showtime in 1-2 years

Just some thoughts.

Cutters
DSD sends

 

[Haidr]

My take. Agree, tree is looking weak based upon loss of needle mass etc.

The tree seems to need a repot. Out here we call this a four year tree.

First up pot to larger container. Feed heavily. No candle cutting, no pruning. In fall only prune off excess bundles out of design. No needle thinning. Build strength year

Year two decades at appropriate time. Feed well. Same as one in fall. No needle thinning only as needed to open up light and shift energy. Should be strong backbudding.

Year Three candle prune appropriately. Minor late spring needle plucking to shift energy and keep build critical mass. Fall selective pruning to enhance design and shift energy, Needle pluck to shift energy allow light.

At this point one should have a healthy vigorous tree with plentiful backbudding and good energy balance.

Year Four. Repot into desired container. Candle prune as appropriate feed well. Late spring needle plucking to shift energy. Fall, wire prune and needle balance to achieve energy balance . design.

Tree should look uber good quite possibly ready to get close to showtime in 1-2 years

Just some thoughts.

Cutters
DSD sends

Thanks for sharing this elaborate plan for the tree. The help I’m getting from the bonsai community here is just great. All you experienced growers helping the new people like me. Much appreciated. I’ll definitely plan for this next repotting season (Spring from my understanding) here in Melbourne which starts in September. Until them I’ll fertilise it hoping it will be a healthy tree by the repot time so it can handle the repotting stage

 

[SeanS]

Thanks for sharing this elaborate plan for the tree. The help I’m getting from the bonsai community here is just great. All you experienced growers helping the new people like me. Much appreciated. I’ll definitely plan for this next repotting season (Spring from my understanding) here in Melbourne which starts in September. Until them I’ll fertilise it hoping it will be a healthy tree by the repot time so it can handle the repotting stage

Spring starts in September (in the southern hemisphere) based on the socially agreed upon Gregorian calendar used in most parts of the human world. Plants don’t necessarily agree to this fixed concept of time, and may begin their spring growth spurt earlier or later than September, so use the signs of spring growth as your guide on when to repot. In JBPs you’ll need to look for buds starting to extend and little needle nubs starting to form. I often have to start my reporting in late July as my plants start to grow, and continue repotting well into September for the later bloomers.

 

[Shibui]

Great points from @SeanS on timing.
I find that pines seem to be less choosy about repotting timing than deciduous. I'm usually flat out working on deciduous through the ideal timing so the pines and junipers usually get done after the deciduous are finished which generally means leaves open on maples. By that time the spring pine candles have definitely started extending but I don't have any issues with repotting at that stage. I know other Melbourne based growers who swear that early pine repotting (before the deciduous) is good so they are repotting pines in July and early August. My take from that contradictory info is that pines can be repotted from mid winter through to mid, maybe even late Spring down here.

I definitely get better back budding on pines which are growing vigorously so I'd follow the schedule laid out by @Deep Sea Diver but I often chop back harder than just candle cutting when I want to really stimulate back buds on the bare wood below the needles. I'll often cut back the 2 year's of new growth, leaving just a few of the oldest needles on each branch.

 

[Haidr]

Spring starts in September (in the southern hemisphere) based on the socially agreed upon Gregorian calendar used in most parts of the human world. Plants don’t necessarily agree to this fixed concept of time, and may begin their spring growth spurt earlier or later than September, so use the signs of spring growth as your guide on when to repot. In JBPs you’ll need to look for buds starting to extend and little needle nubs starting to form. I often have to start my reporting in late July as my plants start to grow, and continue repotting well into September for the later bloomers.

Makes sense. I’ll keep an eye un spring for all the signs you have mentioned. Thanks for the information @SeanS

 

[Haidr]

Great points from @SeanS on timing.
I find that pines seem to be less choosy about repotting timing than deciduous. I'm usually flat out working on deciduous through the ideal timing so the pines and junipers usually get done after the deciduous are finished which generally means leaves open on maples. By that time the spring pine candles have definitely started extending but I don't have any issues with repotting at that stage. I know other Melbourne based growers who swear that early pine repotting (before the deciduous) is good so they are repotting pines in July and early August. My take from that contradictory info is that pines can be repotted from mid winter through to mid, maybe even late Spring down here.

I definitely get better back budding on pines which are growing vigorously so I'd follow the schedule laid out by @Deep Sea Diver but I often chop back harder than just candle cutting when I want to really stimulate back buds on the bare wood below the needles. I'll often cut back the 2 year's of new growth, leaving just a few of the oldest needles on each branch.

Copy that. Thanks for sharing the knowledge as always @Shibui. Plenty of time till the repotting.

 

[Haidr]

Also if you gents can help me decide if I should cut the wires off the tree? Some of the wires are biting into the tree and others seem like they have done the job of reshaping. Specifically the ones at the bottom branches. Roughly how long the wires are supposed to be on the tree?

 

[Shibui]

Wires should be on a tree for as little time as possible. They are an aid to changing the shape rather than a feature of bonsai so take off as soon as the result is achieved or sooner if they apopear to be marking the bark. Better to remove wires too early and rewire than to have permanent wire marks.
The current wiring appears to be a rather hasty or amateur job and previous wiring attempts have also left their mark on the branches.
Take it all off now. If any branches need further placement then rewire neatly.

 

[Haidr]

Wires should be on a tree for as little time as possible. They are an aid to changing the shape rather than a feature of bonsai so take off as soon as the result is achieved or sooner if they apopear to be marking the bark. Better to remove wires too early and rewire than to have permanent wire marks.
The current wiring appears to be a rather hasty or amateur job and previous wiring attempts have also left their mark on the branches.
Take it all off now. If any branches need further placement then rewire neatly.

Copy that. I’ll start removing all the wires now. I don’t personally like the wires and don’t have any on my other trees. Hopefully the scars will be covered considering the bark on JBP grows a bit thicker?

 

[Shibui]

Hopefully the scars will be covered considering the bark on JBP grows a bit thicker?

They should eventually disappear but it will take years. Exactly how long depends how well and how much the trunk and branches grow.

 

[Haidr]

They should eventually disappear but it will take years. Exactly how long depends how well and how much the trunk and branches grow.

All the wires are off now. It wasn’t easy but managed to do it without breaking or cutting any branches. The scars are not too bad except on 2 branches. One bottom right and one top. Thanks for the help. If I didn’t take them off today it would have gotten worse by the day.