Is this material worth it?

[Grok42]

I'm new to bonsai and in the buy a bunch of not very good material to lean on. So far I've acquired about a dozen boxwoods, repotted them for further work this spring. The big box stores are in deep discount mode and I'm contemplating buying more victims.

The attached image of the pine is just listed as "Assorted Conifer" with nothing else to identify it. It's in a 5 gallon pot and the needles are so thick I can't get a good look at the base. What type of pine might this be and would it be of any value learning to wire, prune or style? Would it have any future even as a bad bonsai?

The other options are $2 trees with 1.5"-2" bases about 8' tall. They are your typical nursery specimens with just a few limbs at the top and smooth straight non-tappering trunks. They have mostly fruiting varieties but there were some maples.

 

[Brian Underwood]

Everything has a future given 20 years of proper training. Whether you will learn much while working on crappy material is the real question. My advice is still the same as it has always been; save your money for nice material ($100-$500 per tree), find a teacher whether it be an ongoing thing or just a day or weekend workshop. Good luck!

 

[Smoke]

Probably a Japanese Black Pine. It looks very healthy. Thats the good news and the bad news. The bad news meaning that without proper training as a bonsai early on, it becomes bushy and thick with needles.

The picture offeres glimpses to what is going on. The red arrows at the branch show a branch void of ramification and long needle growth. The arrow at the trunk shows a bone straight trunk bolting vertically. A tree like this will take the work of a very experienced pine person to ever get the branches back to a manageble bonsai looking tree.

The light blue clouds show that the foliage (needles) are in dense clouds out on the tips of thin branches. If you have no experience with pines, this is not the tree you should start out experimenting with. This type of pine would lead to all sorts of dissapointment in the long run.

 

[Klytus]

Needles in threes from the fascicle,Red Pine.

 

[Grok42]

Everything has a future given 20 years of proper training. Whether you will learn much while working on crappy material is the real question. My advice is still the same as it has always been; save your money for nice material ($100-$500 per tree), find a teacher whether it be an ongoing thing or just a day or weekend workshop. Good luck!

Thanks for you advice that I not waste time on this material. I say time since I think they are only asking $5 for the pines and $2 for the trees. My geography makes taking lessons not possible without 3 hours of travel each way. Money isn't so much an issue as knowing what to spend it on. With no local help I feel like I might spend thousands and end up getting ripped off or killing what I do get online.

I was given a trip to Brussels this spring and a tree of my choosing for Christmas so I guess that will be sink or swim time anyway. Maybe I should just start taking chances and order some trees. Should I wait for spring or order them now?

 

[Grok42]

Probably a Japanese Black Pine. It looks very healthy. Thats the good news and the bad news. The bad news meaning that without proper training as a bonsai early on, it becomes bushy and thick with needles.

The picture offers glimpses to what is going on. The red arrows at the branch show a branch void of ramification and long needle growth. The arrow at the trunk shows a bone straight trunk bolting vertically. A tree like this will take the work of a very experienced pine person to ever get the branches back to a manageable bonsai looking tree.

The light blue clouds show that the foliage (needles) are in dense clouds out on the tips of thin branches. If you have no experience with pines, this is not the tree you should start out experimenting with. This type of pine would lead to all sorts of disappointment in the long run.

Thanks for the excellent advice. I'm just excited I now have some idea what a black pine actually looks like. The tree is very healthy which is unusual for this particular store. The secondary branches are very straight with needles in large clusters on the end of the branch. The trunk, what I could see of it, had a lot of movement which is why I was slightly interested in it.

If nothing else, I've learned what I should focus on next time I'm looking and how to take a better picture to help make getting help easier for those offering.

 

[Klytus]

http://treenotes.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/identifying-pines.html

Look for pitch on the trunk.

 

[Wee]

For $5 I would have bought it and I don't even like pines. I am also very new to bonsai.

Brian

 

[edprocoat]

I'm new to bonsai and in the buy a bunch of not very good material to lean on. So far I've acquired about a dozen boxwoods, repotted them for further work this spring. The big box stores are in deep discount mode and I'm contemplating buying more victims.

Be careful it don't look very stable to lean on, Seriously though it seems like a buy to learn concepts such as wiring and growth and finding your way of keeping it healthy. Good luck with it.

ed

 

[Brian Underwood]

Personally I would wait for spring, just before things start to wake up and your temperatures aren't too low. Do some research on what kinds of plants do well in your climate and then choose a few nice ones. As for classes/workshops, a trip out here (CA) for the annual GSBF convention may be worth while if money isn't an issue. We usually have some really great teachers and you come away from a workshop with a nice tree and a ton of knowledge. I'm sure there are good ones in NY too.

 

[Paradox]

While I agree with both Brian and Smoke in regards to learning bonsai on good material purchased from a bonsai nursery, it is difficult to learn bonsai on dead trees. The first thing you have to do is learn how to keep things alive.

If these are only $5, they would be worth buying, imo if only to learn how to keep things alive in a pot, repotting and keeping alive after repotting, some pruning and even wiring on these.

Will they ever make great or even decent bonsai, probably not. But you can learn some of the very basics on them without risking a $100-$500 tree right away. That $100-$500 tree will do you much better once you've gained the confidence to keep it alive. If you kill too many of those before you get the hang of things, it might cause you to not continue with the hobby.

Just my 2 cents from one beginner to another.

 

[Poink88]

For $5...I would have bought it fast (if it is JBP). There are lots that can be learned from "challenging" trees also any and all mistakes won't hurt you as much compared to those committed on $100+ trees.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

If you want to buy it just to see if you can keep it alive for a couple years you can do that put it in bonsai soil and practice. Then you can purchase a better one after know you can keep them alive. Sorry I see you've already gotten this advice earlier. I should have read the whole thread. It is good advice.

 

[fourteener]

I'm new to bonsai and in the buy a bunch of not very good material to lean on. So far I've acquired about a dozen boxwoods, repotted them for further work this spring. The big box stores are in deep discount mode and I'm contemplating buying more victims.

The attached image of the pine is just listed as "Assorted Conifer" with nothing else to identify it. It's in a 5 gallon pot and the needles are so thick I can't get a good look at the base. What type of pine might this be and would it be of any value learning to wire, prune or style? Would it have any future even as a bad bonsai?

The other options are $2 trees with 1.5"-2" bases about 8' tall. They are your typical nursery specimens with just a few limbs at the top and smooth straight non-tappering trunks. They have mostly fruiting varieties but there were some maples.

We are all at different stages in the bonsai process. The more experience the better the material you try to start with. Conversely, I started off with anything I could get my hands on and started to work with it.

Here's the better questions... what inspires you about this tree? What attributes do you want to accentuate? Why did you choose this tree over the one sitting next to it? Was it just the price that motivated you?

It seems that when you can answer some of those questions, it gives you a framework for the next steps.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

did you say $5 for a red pine in a 5 gallon pot? for that price there has to be something to work with.

 

[Grok42]

...
Here's the better questions... what inspires you about this tree? What attributes do you want to accentuate? Why did you choose this tree over the one sitting next to it? Was it just the price that motivated you?

It seems that when you can answer some of those questions, it gives you a framework for the next steps.

There are 3 of them all labeled "Assorted Conifer" at a big box nursery that can barely keep weeds alive. They tend to have slow turn over and therefore a lot of material that is a year or two older than it should be. There is even a corner where they keep a few misc. plants they're really embarrassed about that seem to have been there for 5 years in the same pots but can't throw out because they're still alive.

I picked this one because it was more compact that the other two and because there was some movement in the lower trunk even if the top and secondary branches were long and straight. I certainly didn't have a plan of how I was going to push the growth back to the trunk. Having focused most of my study so far on deciduous trees, I can't say I even had a vision for it. I did grow up around long-leafed pines and it reminded me of the big 100 year old trees that grew on my grandfathers farm. I'm sure that isn't even a style that could be achieved with such a tree as this.

I've attached a close up of the one I'm interested in as well as one other I happened to take a host of. You can see the 3rd in the background of one of the shots. I would be hesitant to get them because of the recommendations of some members but maybe better pictures and more info about my current status in Bonsai will change something. Again, I'm not fishing for a different answer, just providing better info based on feedback so far. If anyone wants, I'll go back, clear all the straw from the base and take better pictures. Again, I would consider it a lesson in how to do a better job of documenting trees.

I can spend money on Bonsai and I'm dedicated to spending a lot of time researching and caring for plants. However, I'm a rank beginner and seem to make mistakes even with things that I know better about because I'm trying to keep everything I should be doing straight in my head. I should have qualified that my concerns about buying expensive plants online are 5% worried about buying something stupid and 95% worried about killing it once I get it. I'm in a geographic bonsai dead zone for about a 3 hour radius and while I can spend money, time to travel is much more constrained and precious. That is why the trip to Brussels this spring is a big deal for me. It will cost a lot just to make the trip even if I buy nothing.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm in a geographic bonsai dead zone for about a 3 hour radius and while I can spend money, time to travel is much more constrained and precious. That is why the trip to Brussels this spring is a big deal for me. It will cost a lot just to make the trip even if I buy nothing.

Sort of a dead zone, but maybe better than you know. Japanese bonsai pots expert Ryan B. is near Jackson, and I work in Canton quite a bit...especially the last several weeks. Byron Myrick is in Moselle. Look them up, or shoot me a PM.

Brussels is worth the 3 hour drive (Olive Branch), but have some idea of what species you're looking for. You will find deals but also plenty of material not worth the asking price. Look for trees in nursery cans; the price doubles when they get moved to bonsai pots...try to go before they repot everything in February-March.

 

[Grok42]

Sort of a dead zone, but maybe better than you know. Japanese bonsai pots expert Ryan B. is near Jackson, and I work in Canton quite a bit...especially the last several weeks. Byron Myrick is in Moselle. Look them up, or shoot me a PM.

Brussels is worth the 3 hour drive (Olive Branch), but have some idea of what species you're looking for. You will find deals but also plenty of material not worth the asking price. Look for trees in nursery cans; the price doubles when they get moved to bonsai pots...try to go before they repot everything in February-March.

Thanks for the advice Brian.

I agree, there is a lot near me once you escape the local wasteland. Brussels is 3 hours north, there are a variety of very good Bonsai Nurseries and artists around New Orleans 3.5 hours to the south-west, Gulf Port and Mobile seem to have active groups about 3.5 hours to the south-east and Birmingham also has what appears to be a good group 3.5 hours to the north-east. So you see why it seems I'm in the Bermuda Triangle of Bonsai?

A Ryan B posted on Craigslist a month ago about selling trees. If it's the one and same then he is just outside Lumberton 3 hours to the south. The good news is that this is actually pretty doable for me as I'm in Wiggins from time to time. I had planned to attempt to setup an appointment with him in February when I'm down there again.

Wow!, Byron Myrick looks like a great guy to know about. Hopefully I'll be buying lots of pots from him once I have a trees worthy. I might have to put unworthy trees in some pots just to support him. Moselle is the only thing inside the Triangle and is easy to drive down and back in an afternoon.

 

[Klytus]

All exhortations aside,i would buy this Pine as it will live wheras your more expensive purchases will die.

 

[Vance Wood]

All exhortations aside,i would buy this Pine as it will live wheras your more expensive purchases will die.

The first time in history I have agreed with you! This is monumental and should be celebrated in the annals of bonsai forums for ever.

You are right. My problem is that so much negative has been suggested,--- not said,--- I am afraid that this tree will be taken for granted as a POS worthy of being abused and allowed to die. As far nursery material is concerned this one is pretty good and the price is excellent. There are better places to get material for bonsai than a big box store but that does not mean that everything and anything from a big box store smells bad and collects flies.

I would give this tree every respect it deserves and do everything to it that it should have done and one day it will turn into a decent bonsai you can boast to your friends as what it is: Your first bonsai, designed by you, cultivated from nursery stock, and turned into a good bonsai-- by you. You did not buy the tree finished or partially finished you did it yourself. That does not mean you cannot buy more expensive pre-bonsai from some developer of pre-bonsai, or purchase a 200 year old Yamadori. Nothing is beyond your check book. You can even go out and purchase a $100,000.00 bonsai done by Kimura if you have the money.