Is overbreeding a thing? My Hibiscus is flowering itself to death

[RozendaalArts]

I bought a beautiful smoky purple Cato Hibiscus september last year, pruned and repotted it, but it hasn't put on any new green growth. Just keeps making flower buds. Was it overbred to flower?

There were two in the same pot so I separated them and tried different stuff on each, I let one flower freely, pruned the buds off the other, and tried everything I could think of, tried no fertilizer, tried Potassium-poor fertilizer (they require high potassium for flowering), tried only nitrogen.
Finally I pruned it hard again a little while ago, and it finally grew, but only all of 1cm before new buds appeared. The other one I've let flower freely is on death's door with only about 3 of the old leaves left which are starting to die from old age I think.

Were these just overbred to flower , or does anyone have any new ideas for making it grow more consistently? Otherwise I'll just get rid of it cuz it's getting kind of depressing watching it kill itself

 

[rockm]

They weren’t “overbred” to do anything The variety you have was likely developed to bloom profusely. Supporting and developing flower and flower buds can take a toll on trees shrubs etc. some can weaken themselves a lot

Some gardeners recommend removing half of a trees flower buds before they open. Satsuki azalea can require that treatment. I’ve done it on my satsukis

More importantly I also remove the seed pods that form after flowers begin to drop. Supporting that many seeds can weaken themselves plant even more.

If you’re concerned about your plant give it a dose of flowering plant fertilizer after blooming and remove developing seed to allow it to regain strength

 

[RozendaalArts]

They weren’t “overbred” to do anything The variety you have was likely developed to bloom profusely. Supporting and developing flower and flower buds can take a toll on trees shrubs etc. some can weaken themselves a lot

Some gardeners recommend removing half of a trees flower buds before they open. Satsuki azalea can require that treatment. I’ve done it on my satsukis

More importantly I also remove the seed pods that form after flowers begin to drop. Supporting that many seeds can weaken themselves plant even more.

If you’re concerned about your plant give it a dose of flowering plant fertilizer after blooming and remove developing seed to allow it to regain strength

That's exactly what I mean by "overbred", developed to flower so much that health suffers. Like I said I removed all the flower buds from one of the two plants and it didn't do anything for its health, even when supported by different kinds of fertilizer

 

[rockm]

That's exactly what I mean by "overbred", developed to flower so much that health suffers. Like I said I removed all the flower buds from one of the two plants and it didn't do anything for its health, even when supported by different kinds of fertilizer

Overbred is not what you’re talking about. It suggests something wrong. It’s not. The plant was developed specifically to bloom a lot. It needs the resources to do that. You have to provide them.

Additionally excessive flowering in trees and shrubs is associated with excessive stress in general. It can be a symptom of something else

 

[RozendaalArts]

Overbred is not what you’re talking about. It suggests something wrong. It’s not. The plant was developed specifically to bloom a lot. It needs the resources to do that. You have to provide them.

Additionally excessive flowering in trees and shrubs is associated with excessive stress in general. It can be a symptom of something else

I don't see how it's not bad, especially in bonsai. I gave one of the two an optimal fertilizer based on Hidden Valley Hibiscus's ratio, and it's had many beautiful flowers (which I remove as soon as they wilt and close), but it's even less healthy than the one I pruned the buds off of, though I also moved the first one away from the light somewhat as a last resort to see if that changes its growth habit. I have another Hibiscus which is a first generation hybrid between two ancestor species and that has grown super healthy and is now making its first flowers, and I'm confident it will go back to growing green once I prune off this flush of flowers. That's had the same conditions and the same specialized Hibiscus fertilizer. What else could it be a symptom of under these conditions? I'd love to figure it out so I can put the plants back into the natural cycle alternating between growing and flowering, and make another nice hibiscus bonsai instead of having to throw/give it away.

 

[rockm]

I don't see how it's not bad, especially in bonsai. I gave one of the two an optimal fertilizer based on Hidden Valley Hibiscus's ratio, and it's had many beautiful flowers (which I remove as soon as they wilt and close), but it's even less healthy than the one I pruned the buds off of, though I also moved the first one away from the light somewhat as a last resort to see if that changes its growth habit. I have another Hibiscus which is a first generation hybrid between two ancestor species and that has grown super healthy and is now making its first flowers, and I'm confident it will go back to growing green once I prune off this flush of flowers. That's had the same conditions and the same specialized Hibiscus fertilizer. What else could it be a symptom of under these conditions? I'd love to figure it out so I can put the plants back into the natural cycle alternating between growing and flowering, and make another nice hibiscus bonsai instead of having to throw/give it away.

Then why you asking?

 

[baldone]

Pictures would be nice

 

[Shibui]

I bought a beautiful smoky purple Cato Hibiscus september last year, pruned and repotted it, but it hasn't put on any new green growth. Just keeps making flower buds. Was it overbred to flower?

You may be blaming the wrong thing here.
For a start, it would be difficult to breed a plant that self destructed by flowering to death. Where will the growers get propagating material if the stock plants die regularly.
Profuse flowering CAN be a sign of something wrong with the plant. Plants under severe stress often react with lots of flowers in an attempt to set seed before they die. Seems to be an evolutionary thing to help maintain species through hard times.
Maybe the fact your plant felt it was dying caused the excess flowering rather than the other way round.

 

[RozendaalArts]

You may be blaming the wrong thing here.
For a start, it would be difficult to breed a plant that self destructed by flowering to death. Where will the growers get propagating material if the stock plants die regularly.
Profuse flowering CAN be a sign of something wrong with the plant. Plants under severe stress often react with lots of flowers in an attempt to set seed before they die. Seems to be an evolutionary thing to help maintain species through hard times.
Maybe the fact your plant felt it was dying caused the excess flowering rather than the other way round.

Why would it feel it was dying though, what could be the cause of this stress reaction? It's been 9 months since repotting and I've been treating them the same as my other variety which has thrived.
Maybe the fact they have so few leaves, but then it becomes a chicken/egg situation; is it flowering because it doesn't have any leaves or does it not have any leaves because it's constantly flowering.
It would indeed be difficult propagating such a cultivar so I hope I'm just missing something in getting it to grow

 

[Shibui]

Why would it feel it was dying though, what could be the cause of this stress reaction? It's been 9 months since repotting and I've been treating them the same as my other variety which has thrived.

I obviously can't help with that. Soil type, watering, placement on the bench, pest or disease, light - there are myriad factors that affect tree health. At times I've had the same species right next to each other but 1 still shows stress for some unknown reason.
I'm offering another possible explanation for what you're observing, as did @rockm Your responses seem to indicate you are not prepared to even consider any alternative.
We'll leave you with your conundrum.

 

[rockm]

You may be blaming the wrong thing here.
For a start, it would be difficult to breed a plant that self destructed by flowering to death. Where will the growers get propagating material if the stock plants die regularly.
Profuse flowering CAN be a sign of something wrong with the plant. Plants under severe stress often react with lots of flowers in an attempt to set seed before they die. Seems to be an evolutionary thing to help maintain species through hard times.
Maybe the fact your plant felt it was dying caused the excess flowering rather than the other way round.

Or maybe it just flowers a lot

 

[RozendaalArts]

I obviously can't help with that. Soil type, watering, placement on the bench, pest or disease, light - there are myriad factors that affect tree health. At times I've had the same species right next to each other but 1 still shows stress for some unknown reason.
I'm offering another possible explanation for what you're observing, as did @rockm Your responses seem to indicate you are not prepared to even consider any alternative.
We'll leave you with your conundrum.

Sorry, I know I protest a lot and it can come across like I don't want to listen. I'm just trying to make sure all the parameters of the problem are as clear as possible, for you as much as for myself. I'll think about stress factors, see if I can still come up with a possible cause. I do appreciate the input, thanks

 

[rockm]

Fwiw. I would just let it alone (obviously keeping it watered and occasionally fertilized) and see what it does. I highly doubt it’s gonna kick off. I really do…

FWIW overcare and futzing around with trees that don’t need it is a common cause of death for bonsai.you wind up doing more harm than good.

 

[RozendaalArts]

Fwiw. I would just let it alone (obviously keeping it watered and occasionally fertilized) and see what it does. I highly doubt it’s gonna kick off. I really do…

FWIW overcare and futzing around with trees that don’t need it is a common cause of death for bonsai.you wind up doing more harm than good.

I might try continuing with the nitrogen fertilizer longer, supplementing occasionally with a little mediterranean fertilizer, and pruning off the flower buds. Maybe that way I combine yours and Shibui's advice. Post-bloom care and feed, and maybe it'll feel less stressed since it did have that little bit of green growth recently to support it. Otherwise I just give it away to someone else to enjoy the flowers for a while, all good

 

[Glaucus]

Yes, many plants are cultivated to produce much more flower buds than normal. If you take azalea indica and compare it with wild R.simsii, an azalea indica can produce about 10 flowers per shoot, while the wild species will generally only produce 2.
But that doesn't necessarily mean they bloom to death. But it is also not true that no cuttings can be taken from cultivar that bloom too profusely. Because in production they may be managed to never produce a single flower bud.
The result can definitely be a somatic line where the ancestors rarely ever flowered.

Cultivated flowers on the one side do better in culture, in containers, as seeds, as cuttings, than their wild ancestors. But it can sometimes also mean they are less durable. Or bloom too profusely. Wild plants are all plants that managed to survive, or have their ancestors survive, without any human care. Without humans to save them. Which can sometimes mean that the 'selfish genes' make an individual plant produce a lot of flowers, and then finally seeds, because the genes subconsciously decided that the individual plant is not in a good spot and they are best off investing resources into seeds for new plants rather than leaves and roots for the sickly plant.

So for bonsai, it can be helpful to select cultivars that produce less flowers.

As for your specific Hibiscus, flower bud creation is generally split into long day plants and short day plants. One group produces flower buds as the days are still long. Ie, in spring. And the other will produce flower buds when they days are becoming shorter, so in summer to autumn. It is actually more complicated, as there's also day neutral and facultative and obligate descriptors. But for mass produces commercial flowering varieties, the nursery will know what to do to deliver plants filled with flower buds ready to flower to a nursery. Nurseries are also said to produce more 'plofplantjes'. Plants that look absolutely gorgeous at the garden center, but that will actually do poorly in the garden because its genetics are optimized for looking stunning as they are being sold, their growing conditions were so optimal that the transition to a real garden is just hard, and it is made to flower out of season so it is confused anyway. Everything is pumped to the extreme, fine-tuned fertilizer, all the pesticides that help, and then also plant growth regulators to manage things further. Flower bud initiation can be inhibited by these, so the genetics overproducing flowers isn't an issue during production.

A case can be made for field-growing garden plants, without pesticides, without optimized fertilizer, etc. But that way the plant will be twice as expense and look way worse at the nursery. But it would look better in your garden in 5 years time.

Don't know anything specific about hibiscus, let alone as bonsai.