Interesting perspective on the USDA Zones

pitchpine

Mame
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6a
Just came across this article about Sable Island in Canada (which has always intrigued me), and buried toward the bottom was an interesting fact: the island is technically classified as USDA zone 8a! But because that just indicates an average minimum low temperature, the island is so relatively cold and windy in summer, trees aren't actually able to grow there.

Just thought it was an instructive example of the limits of zone as an indicator for deciding what will grow well in your area!

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sable-island?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page

Laura
 
Seems I've changed from zone 5b to 6 now.
 
@Gunstock

See....none of it makes sense!


One day I will grow tropicals all year round outside here!

Sorce
 
The zones have meaning more than suggestions. Knowing what meaning it has could save the day,someday! LOL
 
My zone 6 can see frost any day of the year. My Japanese maples are in a slow decline. The climate simply hits them harder than I can rejuvenate them. All my "hardy" azaleas got hammered this last winter. Didn't matter if they were mulched on ground, garaged or in green house. I realize that zones are a starting point in figuring what works out. But I wouldn't rely on them to feel I'm safe with the recommendations.
 
The zones feel more like suggestions than hard rules.

Amen to that! Technically I'm in Zone 5b - but the way the topography and weather patterns work around here, the river bottoms and valleys (where most people and weather stations are) stay warmer than up in the hills where I am. They might as well paint the hill tops zone 4b on the local map, 'cause that's what I experience on a yearly basis.
 
Amen to that! Technically I'm in Zone 5b - but the way the topography and weather patterns work around here, the river bottoms and valleys (where most people and weather stations are) stay warmer than up in the hills where I am. They might as well paint the hill tops zone 4b on the local map, 'cause that's what I experience on a yearly basis.
That's exactly why I posted the question. I live only moved 10 miles away from home and never experienced so many ice storms in winter and really high humidity in the summer. And I have a hard time getting more than 3 bars on my cell phone because of the hills that border the area.
 
My zone 6 can see frost any day of the year. My Japanese maples are in a slow decline. The climate simply hits them harder than I can rejuvenate them. All my "hardy" azaleas got hammered this last winter. Didn't matter if they were mulched on ground, garaged or in green house. I realize that zones are a starting point in figuring what works out. But I wouldn't rely on them to feel I'm safe with the recommendations.
I'm in 6a also on the opposite coast.. strange ways to zone agriculture.
 
The USDA zones only assess one of many variables that determine what can be successfully grown in a particular climate. That is, the average annual minimum temperature for a given location, based on the most recent 30 years of data. For example, downtown Orlando and the innermost suburbs are now a zone 10a (average annual lowest temp 30F-35F) due to the urban heat island effect. In the past (say, before 2000, give or take), there is no way Orlando would have been considered a zone 10, as temperatures in the 20s occurred in most years multiple times. This has little, if any effect on how I practice and handle my bonsai, as the tropical species are going in the greenhouse when lows are below 50F, just to be safe (so whether the low is 27F or 34F, it makes no difference to them). The Japanese maples, sugar maples, Korean hornbeam, trident, etc. are going in the fridge for 3-4 months regardless of whether my location's zone is a 9b or 10a.

The city of Fort Myers (for example), in S. Florida is also a zone 10a, but averages a good bit warmer than Orlando in the cool season, especially during the day, due to the location's lower latitude. As a result, tropicals will receive less winter stress/damage than in Orlando. Conversely, some temperate species that are at their southernmost limit in the Orlando area would not prosper as far south as Fort Myers. Whether the temperate species (which have been native to the area since WAY before mankind ever arrived) in the Orlando area are affected negatively by our urban heat island bumping up low temperatures on the coldest nights by ~4-7F degrees, I have no idea, but I suspect any effect is minimal at most.

I have a yard full of tender palms (including 15 coconut palms) and other tropicals, many/most of which I will lose to a freeze in the very long term, but in the "old days", things like coconuts would be lucky to survive a year or two here. Not the case anymore. Go to the rural areas well outside of the city, and it's a totally different story.

I have done quite a bit of research into this subject, especially as it pertains to my locale and to the State of Florida. There are pockets of the NW FL panhandle (well inland) that are zone 8a, while the urban core of Atlanta borders on (or in a few spots actually is) an 8b zone. Downtown DC is now a zone 8a (yes, there are some winters that get below 10F in downtown DC, but the 30-year average is between 10-15F). So you compare a zone 8a spot in NW FL to DC, and the average annual minima may be in the same category, but the average temperatures are worlds apart. January is 37F low / 62F high in the 8a NW FL and 27F low / 43F high in 8a DC.

I have read anecdotally that there are locations in the southern Outer Banks of Northern Carolina that are zone 9a (average lowest annual temperature 20-25F). I haven't done enough research to see whether it is likely true or not, but I certainly believe it.
 
The USDA zones only assess one of many variables that determine what can be successfully grown in a particular climate. That is, the average annual minimum temperature for a given location, based on the most recent 30 years of data. For example, downtown Orlando and the innermost suburbs are now a zone 10a (average annual lowest temp 30F-35F) due to the urban heat island effect. In the past (say, before 2000, give or take), there is no way Orlando would have been considered a zone 10, as temperatures in the 20s occurred in most years multiple times. This has little, if any effect on how I practice and handle my bonsai, as the tropical species are going in the greenhouse when lows are below 50F, just to be safe (so whether the low is 27F or 34F, it makes no difference to them). The Japanese maples, sugar maples, Korean hornbeam, trident, etc. are going in the fridge for 3-4 months regardless of whether my location's zone is a 9b or 10a.

The city of Fort Myers (for example), in S. Florida is also a zone 10a, but averages a good bit warmer than Orlando in the cool season, especially during the day, due to the location's lower latitude. As a result, tropicals will receive less winter stress/damage than in Orlando. Conversely, some temperate species that are at their southernmost limit in the Orlando area would not prosper as far south as Fort Myers. Whether the temperate species (which have been native to the area since WAY before mankind ever arrived) in the Orlando area are affected negatively by our urban heat island bumping up low temperatures on the coldest nights by ~4-7F degrees, I have no idea, but I suspect any effect is minimal at most.

I have a yard full of tender palms (including 15 coconut palms) and other tropicals, many/most of which I will lose to a freeze in the very long term, but in the "old days", things like coconuts would be lucky to survive a year or two here. Not the case anymore. Go to the rural areas well outside of the city, and it's a totally different story.

I have done quite a bit of research into this subject, especially as it pertains to my locale and to the State of Florida. There are pockets of the NW FL panhandle (well inland) that are zone 8a, while the urban core of Atlanta borders on (or in a few spots actually is) an 8b zone. Downtown DC is now a zone 8a (yes, there are some winters that get below 10F in downtown DC, but the 30-year average is between 10-15F). So you compare a zone 8a spot in NW FL to DC, and the average annual minima may be in the same category, but the average temperatures are worlds apart. January is 37F low / 62F high in the 8a NW FL and 27F low / 43F high in 8a DC.

I have read anecdotally that there are locations in the southern Outer Banks of Northern Carolina that are zone 9a (average lowest annual temperature 20-25F). I haven't done enough research to see whether it is likely true or not, but I certainly believe it.
Yea, I don't understand it totally yet. I've been trying to assume that catagorizing USDA zones will mean any given bonsai genus will be a tree that grows in that zone, but it's not the case in most instances because of varieties of species of the tree.
I think what I'm trying to explain came out the way I wanted it to. The VARIABLES are killing me. I don't know why there isn't a book or online resource that can do that. compute all those variables for us just by entering our zip codes and bingo in seconds I'd know what plants I can grow in my usda zone, what plants go in the refrigerator, what ones stay on the window sill, and what ones go in the greenhouse. And what species won't survive in my zone most of all.
 
I will say this Gunstock, in Massachusetts (this is where you are located?), the USDA zones will help you determine which species are too tender to survive the lowest average winter time lows experienced in your area. For areas in zone 7b/8a or warmer, the zones also serve as an indicator to help determine species that will poorly adapt or not adapt at all to relatively warm/mild winter climates. But in this situation, the zone only serves as a general indicator by identifying the variable of average annual minimum temperature. Thus, a sugar maple (Acer saccharum) does not fail to survive in zone 8b North Florida because the average annual low is 17F, versus -5F, but because areas will an annual low this mild tend to have too few chill hours (and possibly too much summer heat, though I think chill hours are far more important) for Acer saccharum to survive and grow properly. On the flip side a Sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua) will most likely be killed outright in zone 3-4 Minnesota because of the coldest temperatures of the year, not because it lacks summer heat or other factors for it to prosper.

I'm afraid the above thoughts on USDA zones may further confuse, rather than clarify the issue:confused:.

The zoning is different with bonsai (small trees in pots) versus full-sized counterparts of the same species, since trees in pots are more sensitive to extreme cold/freezing. So while I think the zones are actually very useful for the average gardener, I don't think the USDA system is very well applied to the art/practice of bonsai, other than to provide some very general information about the severity of one's climate. Most experienced bonsai practitioners have developed sophisticated techniques and practices to keep trees healthy in a given area, such that one's USDA zone borders on irrelevant. To be fair, I guess it does give a general idea of how much winter protection will be needed, but experienced growers already know this and don't need a colorful map with a sort of binomial nomenclature to tell them this!

My USDA zone here in the northern suburbs of Orlando (borderline 10a) does not factor into my practice of bonsai, as I choose which species I want to grow and control the climate for each tree accordingly, so it will survive and do well. Experience is helping me to improve my success with this as the years go by. Besides, I find it fun and a challenge. Seeing a healthy Japanese maple I have been growing for years sitting near an in-ground coconut palm puts a smile on my face. Now I am tackling the challenge of conifers, such as spruce and hemlock (these are the only two I have so far other than Ephedra sinica, which isn't a tree anyways). This is the first year that I have had success at properly vernalizing these trees. I need to give it a few more years to really confirm actual long term success.

The only trees I truly cannot grow are some obligate cool temperate conifers like Frasier fir for example. I tried a small tree in 2009 and it was dead within a month due to highs in the 90s and lows in the 70s with high humidity, even though I had just purchased it from an area in which it had just had a proper winter. If I wanted it badly enough (and had the disposable $$$, which I DON'T), I'm sure I could grow such species under very high output fluorescent indoor lighting during the summer. But that ain't going to happen anytime in the near future. I would be the only one who would appreciate and tolerate an indoor spruce forest with grow lights fit for cannabis cultivation.:eek:

Okay, enough rambling out of me...
 
The VARIABLES are killing me.

Another variable you have to toss in and basically learn from experience is what zone your plants were grown in no matter what the plant can tolerate as advertised/stated... For example a pjm rhododendron in general can handle a Zone 5 Winter. I am in Zone 6b. The first couple I tried were grown down south and promptly died, one before winter. The last one I tried came from a cooler climate in Connecticut. Looked good all last Summer, Wintered good, Bloomed great a few weeks ago, and is now really growing crazy. Over the years I have learned that I can get plants rated close to my zone but if they do not come from a similar zone I must Winter them protected the first year no matter what Zone the plant tag says. After the first Winter protected(as in a shed) they acclimate and do not need the shed again. Add something else to the mix! - I got a couple of real nice trees from a member North of me, perfect condition and health as well. I still had to protect them the first Winter to acclimate them as that is what they were used to. After that they did just fine buried in snow on shelves... It is a pain but you must know a lot to just even have a chance of success...

Grimmy
 
Another variable you have to toss in and basically learn from experience is what zone your plants were grown in no matter what the plant can tolerate as advertised/stated... For example a pjm rhododendron in general can handle a Zone 5 Winter. I am in Zone 6b. The first couple I tried were grown down south and promptly died, one before winter. The last one I tried came from a cooler climate in Connecticut. Looked good all last Summer, Wintered good, Bloomed great a few weeks ago, and is now really growing crazy. Over the years I have learned that I can get plants rated close to my zone but if they do not come from a similar zone I must Winter them protected the first year no matter what Zone the plant tag says. After the first Winter protected(as in a shed) they acclimate and do not need the shed again. Add something else to the mix! - I got a couple of real nice trees from a member North of me, perfect condition and health as well. I still had to protect them the first Winter to acclimate them as that is what they were used to. After that they did just fine buried in snow on shelves... It is a pain but you must know a lot to just even have a chance of success...

Grimmy
Great info on a need to know basis. Those things are easy to forget. I mean that one time acclimation thing is confusing to me also. I'm starting out in my Bonsai interests and at the moment I don't know what tree's won't die in my zone which is 6b. So what I do is look at tree's or shrubs in garden centers and nurseries in my locality and if it looks like good material I analyze it for trunk size first, then go home and research the species. I recognize the genus names on them but the species or varieties aren't as desirable as the Bonsai tree's online.
I saw a boxwood shrub but the trunks were narrow 1/4" legs bunched together, so that one didn't appeal to me much because of that, but I like the genus. And then I saw a Japanese Maple "forgot the variety name" but those were grafted to a trunk the same length as the graft LOL. 12$ was cheap enough but I think I'll wait until I see something I won't regret putting more cash into.
But, I'm still searching the nurseries for something.
And I own a Juniper (Nana) in a rock mound nursery grown, with a single trunk and I'm limited on what I should do to it in shaping. It's already the perfect outline of a Dragon including a head and feet. I could get into some traditional wiring on branch's now and in the growing season some minor trimming under the pads and cleaning them to get a fuller cloud. Or if I feel crazy I could do some major bending and try something like in the pic below. LOL My best bet though would be to keep it alive to learn and study better alternatives. I'd love to get same cloud results they got without the major bending. I don't think that Bonsai is the same Juniper variety though.
draftwoodform.jpg
 
saw a boxwood shrub but the trunks were narrow 1/4" legs bunched together, so that one didn't appeal to me much because of that, but I like the genus.

When you are interested in a certain plant do yourself a favor and get 3 - 5 of the type you like small and learn them before you pay out larger dollars. I am doing that now with Mugo Pines as I like them but even though they "should" do fine, well you know the rest... What I am getting at is it is far better to learn if they can be grown by you or me in a pot. Investment wise I think the little Mugo, Boxwoods, and a lot of others can be purchased small in a big box store or nursery in the 5 - 7USD range. I usually grow them for 2 seasons before I spend more on good stock.
When I start all over I will do as in previous years. Save if it can be or turns out a nice plant, sell them, or plant them in landscape here or at the farm.
We here have been finding any species of boxwood in a pot is short lived for us BUT not spending a lot of money learning that.
I have several Juniper that are doing good but I still had a mixed shipment of over 2 dozen shipped from point of purchase South of me to Alabama last year as it was later in the season and they would have had a serious setback up here. The downside is I won't see them for a year or two but they will be robust and shipped in better time frame.
There is nothing wrong with growing and learning is my point. I will probably do the same with a LOT more species over the years.

Grimmy
 
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