Intentional or random growth??

[William Dinitzen]

Hello

I have been wondering about this weirdly long and vertical branch at the end of one of the lower pads on my Chinese elm, but since its been there since way before I bought the tree I hadn't cut it, since I thought there must be a reason for it being there. Should I just cut this branch, or is it there for a reason?

Thanks in advance!

 

[SeanS]

The reason it’s there is that trees generally try to grow upwards towards sunlight. The branch was pruned and the resulting bud (which is already on top of the pruned branch tip) emerged and started growing towards the light. It was never wired horizontally/outwards so it now continues to grow vertically.

 

[William Dinitzen]

The reason it’s there is that trees generally try to grow upwards towards sunlight. The branch was pruned and the resulting bud (which is already on top of the pruned branch tip) emerged and started growing towards the light. It was never wired horizontally/outwards so it now continues to grow vertically.

Thanks for the answer, so if I were to prune back this branch, where should I make the cut for the best results?

 

[SeanS]

Thanks for the answer, so if I were to prune back this branch, where should I make the cut for the best results?

First tell us what you would consider best results?

If it were my tree I would wire that shoot closer to horizontal so that you start to build an “up and out” branching pattern, then prune it back to 1-2 nodes/buds that would give you the best change in direction and bifurcation once the new buds start to grow

 

[bonsaichile]

A pic of the whole tree would help people give you design advice

 

[William Dinitzen]

A pic of the whole tree would help people give you design advice

Yeah that makes sense, will send, thanks

 

[William Dinitzen]

First tell us what you would consider best results?

If it were my tree I would wire that shoot closer to horizontal so that you start to build an “up and out” branching pattern, then prune it back to 1-2 nodes/buds that would give you the best change in direction and bifurcation once the new buds start to grow

Here is a picture of the entire tree, would it not make the pad reach too far out if I wired it horizontally ?

 

[bonsaichile]

Personally, I think the main problem is not that first branch, but that the tree is too tall for that trunk. i would not make any decisions regarding that branch until you have compacted the tree, bringing the apex down. My 2 cents

 

[William Dinitzen]

Personally, I think the main problem is not that first branch, but that the tree is too tall for that trunk. i would not make any decisions regarding that branch until you have compacted the tree, bringing the apex down. My 2 cents

Im not really interested in doing anything drastic with the tree, all im wondering is how to prune the completely vertical growth at the end of the lowest pad, thanks for the input tho, will keep in mind for future changes.

 

[Tieball]

I like that low branch. There was another discussion about low branches here about a week ago. The thread was about a Cyprus swamp tree. I think a low branch if you get one can become an excellent feature. I would leave the branch alone. Don’t chop it off. Save the branch! The branch is fabulous!
Example of another tree attached. It’s very natural in appearance.

 

[William Dinitzen]

I like that low branch. There was another discussion about low branches here about a week ago. The thread was about a Cyprus swamp tree. I think a low branch if you get one can become an excellent feature. I would leave the branch alone. Don’t chop it off. Save the branch! The branch is fabulous!
Example of another tree attached. It’s very natural in appearance. View attachment 488119

Hey I think my thread might be misunderstood. I like the low branch aswell, its simply the vertical growth at the very end of the low branch im wondering about, since I don't know where to prune it.

 

[Tieball]

Hey I think my thread might be misunderstood. I like the low branch aswell, its simply the vertical growth at the very end of the low branch im wondering about, since I don't know where to prune it.

Oh. I enlarged the area. I don’t see a need for pruning at this stage. On elms I generally let a branch grow out to five to seven leaves and then cut it back to two. I keep in mind the direction of the next bud hanging with the leaf growth so sometimes it could be cut to one leaf. I don’t see enough growth on your branch to need a pruning. I can’t see every detail but made one recommended cut at this point. It seems all three of the branches are from one place. I’d cut two off. You have the branch in front of you though. My view could be a bad photo angle. My thoughts.

 

[Tieball]

I can’t see a whole lot of branch detail with the angle and enlargement. Maybe you could detail photograph just the branch from a couple angles.

 

[William Dinitzen]

I can’t see a whole lot of branch detail with the angle and enlargement. Maybe you could detail photograph just the branch from a couple angles.

Im sorry for all the confusion, the branch im wondering about is the left lower branch (the one you drew on is the right lower branch). If you look at the very first image I linked, you will see a closeup. Ive linked it here aswell, notice how the branch suddenly moves perpendicular upwards.

 

[Tieball]

Im sorry for all the confusion, the branch im wondering about is the left lower branch (the one you drew on is the right lower branch). If you look at the very first image I linked, you will see a closeup. Ive linked it here aswell, notice how the branch suddenly moves perpendicular upwards.

View attachment 488149

No problem. The confusion is likely me. Sorry about that. Anyway…..I enlarged what I could see on that branch and thought two answers. I can’t see all the buds or their real direction orientation. So with what I see I’d be more likely, if my tree, to go with number 1. When cut like that the bud shown behind the red line in number 2 should extend. When it extends I’d orient it more horizontal. With the direction taken in number 1 that bud below the red line may/should go horizontal with a little assist from you. So you’d end up with both those buds growing in a more horizontal direction. And then you’ve settled your pad away from the vertical burst of growth.

It is possible you could wire that branch away from the vertical direction. Personally I attempt more cut and grow processes before I wire.

I’ve also wired and twisted branches heading vertical to change the branch fibers to build more horizontally. Sometimes it’s possible. Depends on the ability of the branch to accept a bend. A caution note….I’ve also done this and snapped a branch….plan B is then taken.

Does this make sense?

 

[Shibui]

One reason for leaving long growth on a lower branch is to encourage it to grow.
Take a good look at the whole tree. You will probably see that branches up top are stronger, thicker and grow faster while low branches often hardly grow. This phenomenon is called apical dominance. All trees want to become the tallest tree in the forest Those low branches will be no use at all to a big, strong forest giant and your bonsai doesn't really know it is supposed to be small. It still has pretensions of grandeur and puts effort into growing at the top and not lower down.
That low branch is pretty small and thin and will stay that way you trim it, especially if the top is allowed to grow and stay strong. One way to change that is to prune the top branches harder and leave the lower ones to grow longer shoots. This fools the tree into putting more effort into its plan B (grow one of those low branches real long, then up and become the tallest tree in the forest).
When the branch is growing well and looks thick enough, prune it back to desired size to re-establish your desired bonsai shape.

 

[William Dinitzen]

No problem. The confusion is likely me. Sorry about that. Anyway…..I enlarged what I could see on that branch and thought two answers. I can’t see all the buds or their real direction orientation. So with what I see I’d be more likely, if my tree, to go with number 1. When cut like that the bud shown behind the red line in number 2 should extend. When it extends I’d orient it more horizontal. With the direction taken in number 1 that bud below the red line may/should go horizontal with a little assist from you. So you’d end up with both those buds growing in a more horizontal direction. And then you’ve settled your pad away from the vertical burst of growth.

It is possible you could wire that branch away from the vertical direction. Personally I attempt more cut and grow processes before I wire.

I’ve also wired and twisted branches heading vertical to change the branch fibers to build more horizontally. Sometimes it’s possible. Depends on the ability of the branch to accept a bend. A caution note….I’ve also done this and snapped a branch….plan B is then taken.

Does this make sense?
View attachment 488171View attachment 488172

Perfect! Thank you for the patience, makes a lot of sense, now I think I might actually go with number two, because when looking at it from a in-real-life perspective, that second bud goes in the exact same direction as the shoot im trying to get rid of. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Tieball]

Perfect! Thank you for the patience, makes a lot of sense, now I think I might actually go with number two, because when looking at it from a in-real-life perspective, that second bud goes in the exact same direction as the shoot im trying to get rid of. Thanks for the reply.

Number. 2 is a good choice. In person, and up close to the branch, you can see what can’t be seen in a photo. In number 1, there’s also a hint of a developing problem of the limb thickness below the red line. It’s like a small trunk starting to form that’s thicker than the host branch. Best to eliminate that problem now. Keep an eye on the growth of that new cut-to bud on number 2….so it doesn’t head to vertically right away.