Indoor Mulberry Mini Rose and Common Myrtle

[LiquidSkin]

Hello all and welcome to my indoor garden.

I grow bonsai indoors under lights because I live in an apartment with no outdoor garden space also my windows are north facing. Yet I love bonsai and gardening in general so I bought a silver reflective greenhouse tent thing from ebay and some 55w led lights to garden with. Currently I am growing 1 Everbearing Mulberry, two unknown Roses claimed to be Micro Miniature class, and have just the other day ordered a common dwarf Myrtle communis. I haven't received the Myrtle yet though it is in transit. I also have a Lunchbox Pepper and Dwarf Firecracker Pepper that will be grown into a Bonchi eventually. The Lunchbox was purchased from Walmart as a starter plant and Firecracker started from seed. Other things growing from seed are two Angel Wings Heirloom Miniature Rose.

Everything was growing well until I received the first rose from etsy. This rose had spider mites which spread to the mulberry resulting in a need to spray with pyrethrin, this caused the rose and mulberry to defoliate. Then I found another rose I wanted and ordered it, again it had spider mites which spread to the Mulberry and first rose. I sprayed pyrethrin and they defoliated again. This time I swore off ordering online. Hopefully the Myrtle wont have spider mites because I don't think the Mulberry will survive another defoliation. As is there is die back.

Here in this thread I will document all Bonsai and indoor gardening progression over the years.

The Greenhouse


Everbearing Mulberry I'm not sure why only one side is growing. There are a couple green buds developing on the bear side though. It is planted in a 5 gallon pot to grow tall and thicken the trunk and produce fruit.



Micro Roses



Lunchbox Pepper

 

[_#1_]

You might wanna quarantine the myrtle in a separate enclosure when it arrives

 

[penumbra]

I think you have poor plant choices for indoor growing. You will likely always have an issue with spider mites on roses inside. I don't trust the adds I have seen about indoor mulberry and to my knowledge there is no indoor crape myrtle. It has to have a winter dormancy.
Decades ago when I lived in an apartment I raised bonsai on my balcony.
There are plants that are much more suited to indoor growing than those you have picked.
I hope I don't come off as harsh but I hate to see new bonsai hopefuls make choices that pretty much guarantee failure. Please check out our archives for tropicals. You are not likely to find your plants there.

 

[LiquidSkin]

Note to self - Purchased Mulberry as a small rooted cutting. 3/30/22

 

[LiquidSkin]

I think you have poor plant choices for indoor growing. You will likely always have an issue with spider mites on roses inside. I don't trust the adds I have seen about indoor mulberry and to my knowledge there is no indoor crape myrtle. It has to have a winter dormancy.
Decades ago when I lived in an apartment I raised bonsai on my balcony.
There are plants that are much more suited to indoor growing than those you have picked.
I hope I don't come off as harsh but I hate to see new bonsai hopefuls make choices that pretty much guarantee failure. Please check out our archives for tropicals. You are not likely to find your plants there.

Some species of mulberries are grown in the tropics such as Philippins and Central America among others. Personally I have previously grown mulberries for a few years before pests got to them.

Do note Myrtle Communis is not the same species as Crape Myrtle https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/myrtus-communis/ Myrtle communis is often grown as a house plant.

 

[LiquidSkin]

You might wanna quarantine the myrtle in a separate enclosure when it arrives

Good idea, I'll quarantine it for a two weeks before putting it with the other bonsai.

 

[penumbra]

Some species of mulberries are grown in the tropics such as Philippins and Central America among others. Personally I have previously grown mulberries for a few years before pests got to them.

There are tropical mulberry which are in fact in the same family as ficus. But I doubt one can be kept inside for years like ficus.

Do note Myrtle Communis is not the same species as Crape Myrtle https://www.gardenia.net/plant/myrtus-communis-common-myrtle Myrtle communis is often grown as a house plant.

Understood, but picture is of a crape myrtle. I have two Myrtle and the one inside is doing ok but the one outside has grown about 4 times larger in the past 2 years.
Also, my indoor plant has had mealy bug twice but is now clean. My outside plant (which winters inside) has not had mealy bug.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@LiquidSkin - you've been a member of the forum for over a year, so you have some experience. 10 years ago I would have agreed 100% with @penumbra that many outdoor trees can not be grown under lights. However, now the modern LED's are so bright that it is quite possible to have a bright enough grow space for trees that would normally be grown outdoors only.

BUT there are still difficulties. I don't see any fans in your grow space. Air movement is important. I keep a fan on 24/7 in my indoor space. You just need enough air that soft leaves, grassy leaved plants the leaves would wave a little in the breeze. You don't need a 40 mph wind with leaves flapping in the wind. Though surprisingly, if you keep up on watering, trees do fine in a breeze strong enough for a little "flapping". The addition of a fan WILL CHANGE how often you need to water. That is a good thing.

The addition of a fan will help keep insects down. Spider mites do not like air movement. The addition of a fan will help cool your growing space if the fans are kept on 24/7. This way at night the temperature will drop. Outdoor trees need a sharp day-night temperature change, at least a 15 F degree cooling at night or a 7 or 8 C degree cooling at night. The sharper the cooling, within reason, up to about 25 or 30 F, the healthier the tree. For example if your growing space were to warm to 85 F during the light cycle due to the heat of the lights, cooling to 65 F at night would give you a nice 20 F degree cooling. This would be good. Chilling more than 30 degrees might risk causing thermal shock. Allowing your growing space to warm above 90 F would like cause heat stress.

@penubra - I know a breeder of miniature roses. He built a very expensive home for himself on the profits from a series of rose crosses and selections he made. He raises his miniature roses under lights. He in part compensates for lower light intensity of being under lights by using a longer day length. It is indeed possible to do quite well with miniature roses under lights. Though for majority of "outdoor trees" my initial though is they would be difficult if not impossible indoors. After seeing his set up, I stopped saying "impossible" when someone wanted to raise a traditionally outdoor tree under lights. For under lights myself I recommend 18 hours on, 6 hours of dark. This will help compensate for the fact that lights are not quite as bright as outdoor sunlight. This has worked well enough for my miniature roses.

Pyrethrum sprays can be rough on plant leaves depending on the adjutant or potentiator chemicals and propellants in the spray. If the spray you use to kill your spider mites causes defoliation, it is the WRONG spray, INAPPROPRIATE for the trees you are using the spray on. Selecting the correct pesticide is tricky and fraught with liability issues. You must read and decide for yourself what is appropriate. One good source for "real" pesticides is Hummert International, they are headquartered in Saint Louis but ship through out USA and Canada. Go to their chemicals section. READ, READ and READ some more, they have some good, safe products. I like using wettable powders. These are powder pesticides you add to water, mix and spray with a hand pump sprayer. The only solvent is water. No leaf burn due to solvents or propellants or potentiators. I also like that through Hummert I can get some of the second or third generation Pyrethrin synthetics that are more potent, or other classes of pesticides like the spinosaids.

www.hummert.com

Key is READ.
1.) make sure pesticide lists your insect as one of the species it kills ON THE LABEL.
2.) make sure the pesticide does not list your plant as a species of plant that the pesticide should NOT BE USED ON (the specific exclusions list)
3.) make sure the pesticide does include your plant as a species in the general safe for use to be used on list of plants.
4.) read and follow all personal safety precautions, and equipment requirements, PPE, Personal Protection Equipment, for safe application of the pesticide.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is using an INSECTICIDE on Spider Mites, because spider mites are NOT INSECTS, they are ARACHNIDS. Spider mites, flat mites, false mites and other 8 legged plant sap sucking pests have a different nervous system / neurochemistry and are not affected by the same chemicals that are used to disrupt insect neurochemistry. Pyrethrins only work on mites if the correct adjuvant potentiator chemicals are included in the formula. Plain old Pyrethrum will not kill spider mites at all. The LABEL MUST SAY: Kills spider mites, or the spray will not likely kill spider mites.

Spider mites are best killed by ARACHNICIDES. In the old days, the go to arachnicide was Pentac, but that was recalled off the market because it was killing much more than just spiders. There are replacements, some of the modern arachnicides are very nicely targeted, and will "stay in their lanes" narrowly targeting mites and not harming other wildlife. (well not much other wildlife, these are powerful chemicals after all).

Best "cure" for spider mites is prevention. The addition of air movement will improve your growing conditions, thus eliminating the need to have an arsenal of sprays for insects. Proper sir movement, good light and I have been able to go several years at a time without having to spray for any insect.

One cheat - stop at your local pet shop. READ THE LABELS, of you locally available whole house FLEA and Tick BOMBS. These are aerosol containers that you place, set off, then leave the house for a certain number of hours, usually 4 hours or more before it is safe to re-enter the house. When my orchid collection was over 1000 plants, I discovered that these flea and tick bombs were a whole lot easier to use than individually spraying 1000 orchid plants. Ticks are a 8 legged beasts, arachnids, and most pesticides that kill ticks will kill spider mites, same neurochemistry. However, flea and tick spray might "burn" the foliage of houseplants and trees some. So don't over do it. If the label says one bomb per 10 x 10 x 8 room, don't use 2. I like the flea and tick bomb that guarantee a 7 month residual control. This means I do not have to do repeat spraying.

Hope this helps. A lot to digest. Some is for others that are in similar but not quite the same situation as you are in. Going to your big box store and just reading labels might be enough.

 

[penumbra]

I know all things are possible but these choices are not practical or logical for a beginner. Yes, we can grow plants in space and may some day grow plants on another planet.
It almost always leads to failure which leads to abandonment. Better to encourage a new want to be bonsai-ist toward a obtainable goal and logical choices.
Test the water before you jump in.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm not going to tell the OP to throw out the plants they already have. Yes, for under lights, you can not beat Ficus. Ficus, Serissa, maybe Grewia. Can't forget Portulacaria. All these selections are boring. Lets encourage the OP to see what they can do. I KNOW mini-roses can be done well under lights. I don't know much about the various species and hybrid mulberries. If the OP improves their horticulture, cleans up their spider mite issue. Maybe uses a little fertilizer to get better color in their leaves, they will prove that even a new to indoor under lights can grow mini-roses and might teach us old dogs something about the new hybrid mulberries.

Mini-roses can be done well under lights. Lets encourage the OP to get there.

Ficus and Portulacaria are boring, that is why you rarely see me post about them, even trying to be helpful. Okay, there are a couple exceptional Ficus species, but most species of Ficus are boring.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Oh, by the way, Grewia are not boring, if you get them to bloom. They are quite beautiful in bloom. And not all that easy to bloom well.

I had a bad nights sleep, and didn't get my caffeine dialed in correctly today, so I might seem grumpy, but really I intend no ill will to anyone.

 

[penumbra]

We can agree that portulacaria are almost always boring, yet many beginners adopt them for bonsai subjects. Ficus can be boring but so can an oak tree. But there are some great ficus bonsai and they are quite exotic. However, they are both very easy to train. But roses as bonsai? Almost never. Roses as rose, yes. Though many orchids are much easier if bonsai is not the goal. But if bonsai is not the goal then the whole point of selection of plant material is mute. Certainly there are roses and many other plants not normally grown inside that can be coddled to do so. So let us assume the roses are for their own enjoyment and not destined to become bonsai.
If the op is looking for bonsai, I will reiterate that the choices made are poor. I would like to encourage new people to handle what they sensibly can before going into the deep end. And narrowing the list of tropicals down to the couple you have leaves out the dozens of plants more suitable for true indoor bonsai culture, like the above mentioned Myrtle. (The crape myrtle will not last long) If the op is realistically looking for indoor plants that are convincing bonsai subjects he can send me a pm and I will be happy to give him a list of what works well for me and what does not. I could also send him some starter plants of some that work well for me and other tropical bonsai practitioners.

 

[penumbra]

I might seem grumpy, but really I intend no ill will to anyone.

I just noticed this. Really Leo, you are the most centered person here. We all wait for you to come in. You speak, we listen my friend.
But sometimes we speak too.

BTW, your advice on aerosol containers is spot on. I use 3 to 4 spaced out over the winter and it makes a huge difference.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

My absolute favorite indoor for winter, outdoor for summer was a dwarf pomegranate. I kept one going over 35 years and over a steep learning curve. I was great. I did find out that they don't survive +10 F, but until that day it was 35+ years of indestructible. Loved the flowers, it would start blooming late summer and keep blooming thru most of the wint under lights. Never got mine to look particularly "bonsai like", it did look like a wispy acacia tree with flowers. A good one for the OP to try

 

[penumbra]

My absolute favorite indoor for winter, outdoor for summer was a dwarf pomegranate. I kept one going over 35 years and over a steep learning curve. I was great. I did find out that they don't survive +10 F, but until that day it was 35+ years of indestructible. Loved the flowers, it would start blooming late summer and keep blooming thru most of the wint under lights. Never got mine to look particularly "bonsai like", it did look like a wispy acacia tree with flowers. A good one for the OP to try

I have three of them but they are outside right now.

 

[Carol 83]

My absolute favorite indoor for winter, outdoor for summer was a dwarf pomegranate. I kept one going over 35 years and over a steep learning curve. I was great. I did find out that they don't survive +10 F, but until that day it was 35+ years of indestructible. Loved the flowers, it would start blooming late summer and keep blooming thru most of the wint under lights. Never got mine to look particularly "bonsai like", it did look like a wispy acacia tree with flowers. A good one for the OP to try

My dwarf poms actually bloom better inside under lights than they do outside during the summer, go figure.

 

[LiquidSkin]

@LiquidSkin - you've been a member of the forum for over a year, so you have some experience. 10 years ago I would have agreed 100% with @penumbra that many outdoor trees can not be grown under lights. However, now the modern LED's are so bright that it is quite possible to have a bright enough grow space for trees that would normally be grown outdoors only.

BUT there are still difficulties. I don't see any fans in your grow space. Air movement is important. I keep a fan on 24/7 in my indoor space. You just need enough air that soft leaves, grassy leaved plants the leaves would wave a little in the breeze. You don't need a 40 mph wind with leaves flapping in the wind. Though surprisingly, if you keep up on watering, trees do fine in a breeze strong enough for a little "flapping". The addition of a fan WILL CHANGE how often you need to water. That is a good thing.

The addition of a fan will help keep insects down. Spider mites do not like air movement. The addition of a fan will help cool your growing space if the fans are kept on 24/7. This way at night the temperature will drop. Outdoor trees need a sharp day-night temperature change, at least a 15 F degree cooling at night or a 7 or 8 C degree cooling at night. The sharper the cooling, within reason, up to about 25 or 30 F, the healthier the tree. For example if your growing space were to warm to 85 F during the light cycle due to the heat of the lights, cooling to 65 F at night would give you a nice 20 F degree cooling. This would be good. Chilling more than 30 degrees might risk causing thermal shock. Allowing your growing space to warm above 90 F would like cause heat stress.

@penubra - I know a breeder of miniature roses. He built a very expensive home for himself on the profits from a series of rose crosses and selections he made. He raises his miniature roses under lights. He in part compensates for lower light intensity of being under lights by using a longer day length. It is indeed possible to do quite well with miniature roses under lights. Though for majority of "outdoor trees" my initial though is they would be difficult if not impossible indoors. After seeing his set up, I stopped saying "impossible" when someone wanted to raise a traditionally outdoor tree under lights. For under lights myself I recommend 18 hours on, 6 hours of dark. This will help compensate for the fact that lights are not quite as bright as outdoor sunlight. This has worked well enough for my miniature roses.

Pyrethrum sprays can be rough on plant leaves depending on the adjutant or potentiator chemicals and propellants in the spray. If the spray you use to kill your spider mites causes defoliation, it is the WRONG spray, INAPPROPRIATE for the trees you are using the spray on. Selecting the correct pesticide is tricky and fraught with liability issues. You must read and decide for yourself what is appropriate. One good source for "real" pesticides is Hummert International, they are headquartered in Saint Louis but ship through out USA and Canada. Go to their chemicals section. READ, READ and READ some more, they have some good, safe products. I like using wettable powders. These are powder pesticides you add to water, mix and spray with a hand pump sprayer. The only solvent is water. No leaf burn due to solvents or propellants or potentiators. I also like that through Hummert I can get some of the second or third generation Pyrethrin synthetics that are more potent, or other classes of pesticides like the spinosaids.

www.hummert.com

Key is READ.
1.) make sure pesticide lists your insect as one of the species it kills ON THE LABEL.
2.) make sure the pesticide does not list your plant as a species of plant that the pesticide should NOT BE USED ON (the specific exclusions list)
3.) make sure the pesticide does include your plant as a species in the general safe for use to be used on list of plants.
4.) read and follow all personal safety precautions, and equipment requirements, PPE, Personal Protection Equipment, for safe application of the pesticide.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is using an INSECTICIDE on Spider Mites, because spider mites are NOT INSECTS, they are ARACHNIDS. Spider mites, flat mites, false mites and other 8 legged plant sap sucking pests have a different nervous system / neurochemistry and are not affected by the same chemicals that are used to disrupt insect neurochemistry. Pyrethrins only work on mites if the correct adjuvant potentiator chemicals are included in the formula. Plain old Pyrethrum will not kill spider mites at all. The LABEL MUST SAY: Kills spider mites, or the spray will not likely kill spider mites.

Spider mites are best killed by ARACHNICIDES. In the old days, the go to arachnicide was Pentac, but that was recalled off the market because it was killing much more than just spiders. There are replacements, some of the modern arachnicides are very nicely targeted, and will "stay in their lanes" narrowly targeting mites and not harming other wildlife. (well not much other wildlife, these are powerful chemicals after all).

Best "cure" for spider mites is prevention. The addition of air movement will improve your growing conditions, thus eliminating the need to have an arsenal of sprays for insects. Proper sir movement, good light and I have been able to go several years at a time without having to spray for any insect.

One cheat - stop at your local pet shop. READ THE LABELS, of you locally available whole house FLEA and Tick BOMBS. These are aerosol containers that you place, set off, then leave the house for a certain number of hours, usually 4 hours or more before it is safe to re-enter the house. When my orchid collection was over 1000 plants, I discovered that these flea and tick bombs were a whole lot easier to use than individually spraying 1000 orchid plants. Ticks are a 8 legged beasts, arachnids, and most pesticides that kill ticks will kill spider mites, same neurochemistry. However, flea and tick spray might "burn" the foliage of houseplants and trees some. So don't over do it. If the label says one bomb per 10 x 10 x 8 room, don't use 2. I like the flea and tick bomb that guarantee a 7 month residual control. This means I do not have to do repeat spraying.

Hope this helps. A lot to digest. Some is for others that are in similar but not quite the same situation as you are in. Going to your big box store and just reading labels might be enough.

I didn't realize how important a fan was. The tent is always open to room temperature which with an air conditioner is about 68 to 74F. However, I'll purchase an oscillating fan as it sounds necessary.

The lights are cob LEDs and don't produce much heat compared to other indoor lighting options. There are only 2 in the tent for a total wattage of 110w. I may add 2 more later on though.

The brand of pyrethrin I used is Southern AG (amazon) it is 1% pyrethrin, 10% Piperonyl Butoxide and some other stuff. It does say on the label it kills spider mites along with a host of other pests. I must have mixed it too strong causing defoliation.

Anyways I appreciate you taking the time to type all this information it has been extremely helpul. Thank you

 

[LiquidSkin]

On 7/22 I planted 6 Dwarf Everbearing Black Mulberry cuttings in 3" pots. I was so excited to get them started I didn't dip in rooting hormone or snip a bit off of the bottom. Anyways now they are rooting/growing. I keep cutting off the fruit to help them root and grow healthy.

Out of 6 cuttings 4 survived.



I also purchased two different kinds of Micro Miniature Roses "Tiny Dynamite" and "Yellow Bantam" directly from the breeder Paul Barden. I have been wanting micro mini's for years ever since owning Si rose about 7 years ago. I just never knew where to purchase them. Very few nurseries carry micros. So long story short I made a post on a rose gardening forum, the breeder got in touch, and a sale was made $49 shipping included for the pair.

Tiny Dinamite on the right and Yellow Bantam on the left

 

[LiquidSkin]

Here is an update on Mulberry Issai. It has had a rough life and died back a bit due to spider mites it had weeks ago. However, now it is growing back as you can see below.
I will be trimming the roots once it has recovered more maybe in a month and plan to plant it in a 1 gallon pot.

Second picture is from the front.

 

[LiquidSkin]

Another Mulberry update:

I chopped it! As you can see it is one sided I'm hoping it will back bud on the bear side.