I'm growing mushrooms in one of my ill-designed boxes, do I need to re-box ASAP?

[SU2]

So ~1mo ago I had this issue where one of the 'stalest'/darkest corners of a box started to get this cobweb-type mold on it (I could just tell it was myco, having seen mushrooms grown before it was just so obviously the same type of pure-white webbing, even the smell was that of mushrooms) This was happening in the worst (least light/wind) corner of a poorly-designed box for a large bougie I collected (it was too-late at night and neighbors prohibited power-tool use, so its box's walls were wayyy too-tall, like the better part of 1' too-tall for the substrate's surface-height.

Immediately, I removed all affected substrate I could find, and began 'starving' it (zero fertilizer and only the most minimal waterings, literally waiting for the leaves to start showing a little wilt before most waterings) The webs never came back, though every time I inspected the thing I could still smell the musky odor of mushrooms...

Today I was cleaning some leaves off the surface and I found a couple mushrooms!! Obviously whatever I removed, didn't push that mycorrhizae out of the box (I wonder if it competes with the myco that is known to be a big part of bougies' otherwise-weak root systems?), I took pics of these mushrooms (note the 2nd picture, where I squished one - the inside is this powdery brown stuff, I think these are the things that make those 'clouds' when you're walking on an ill-kept lawn:


I've known it'd need re-boxing but wanted to wait a while, let it grow some more - obviously though the health/survival of this thing is what matters and I'm unsure how big a problem/threat this separate(I presume) myco/mushroom specie is to be in my substrate (god I'd be soo stoked to hear this is the same myco that's symbiotic with bougie roots!!) I could use my grinder to cut-off the excess box-height, but my guess is that'd only have worked preventively, not now that the colonization is so complete the myco is fruiting (mushrooms are myco 'fruit bodies' in a sense)
Am afraid the right answer is to re-box with an extremely extensive root-cleaning to get this other stuff out as much as possible, hopefully not but am ready to do whatever's necessary! If it would need re-boxing and/or root-cleaning, should I bag the top or prune it? Can't imagine how I could safely work on the roots of it with the canopy it has right now:


Thanks for any help on this one, I collected this 4.5mo ago, was my first large collected plant (never had anything >4-6" before, this is >1' at some spots) and would hate to lose it

[Just to be clear, this plant *never* got misted although it spent its first ~1-2mo getting watered with a hose, I'd learned that from walter pall but subsequently found it to be a bad approach for my garden; the area where the original myco 'cottony stuff' was was in a corner of the box where you can hardly see, I try defoliating the bottom of the shoots there to get more light/air in but it's just ill-designed and the corner was 'stagnant' beyond fixing, now I'm growing mushrooms - and FWIW those mushrooms were from the *opposite* corner of the box as the original cob-web myco!!]

 

[0soyoung]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about them as long as they are on/in the soil.
If you ever see them on/in the bark of your tree, you know that section of the tree is dead and that you've got serious fungal problems. Myco in the soil is friendly stuff, IMHO - generally helpful to roots. High phosphorous levels are usually 'lethal' (inhibitive might be the right word) for myco.

 

[GGB]

mushrooms always grow in happy forests. I'd take it as a good sign

 

[CamdenJim]

mushrooms always grow in happy forests. I'd take it as a good sign

I hate people who post this kind of reply, but ...
ME TOO
Jim

 

[SU2]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about them as long as they are on/in the soil.
If you ever see them on/in the bark of your tree, you know that section of the tree is dead and that you've got serious fungal problems. Myco in the soil is friendly stuff, IMHO - generally helpful to roots. High phosphorous levels are usually 'lethal' (inhibitive might be the right word) for myco.

Well, the white cottony myco that was on the soil butted-up into the tree, and that section has bark that's suffering from some serious black/dark-green slime-algae/mold issue....am thinking I should get vinegar + toothbrush and clean that area (probably remove whatever loose bark I can first), though I've been meaning to do that for a while and am just afraid of using vinegar so close to the roots am afraid I'll get it on the roots and kill my tree!!

 

[0soyoung]

The vinegar thing is for moss. Moss doesn't grow in strongly acidic conditions (nor on metal). Peroxide works on a broad spectrum of fungi and bacteria and isn't particularly threatening to tree roots. Get 3% peroxide from the grocery/pharmacy. Dilute it with at least 3 parts water. Scrub gently with an soft toothbrush. Diluting 2 tablespoons peroxide to a quart is a handy spray fungicide and essentially Zerotol at their lable directions.

 

[SU2]

The vinegar thing is for moss. Moss doesn't grow in strongly acidic conditions (nor on metal). Peroxide works on a broad spectrum of fungi and bacteria and isn't particularly threatening to tree roots. Get 3% peroxide from the grocery/pharmacy. Dilute it with at least 3 parts water. Scrub gently with an soft toothbrush. Diluting 2 tablespoons peroxide to a quart is a handy spray fungicide and essentially Zerotol at their lable directions.

Thank you very much for the quick reply (had come back to ask you another Q based on your first!), is the 2TBSP/qrt better? Or the 1:3? I don't care which, I'm going to make that right now!! After reading your post:

If you ever see them on/in the bark of your tree, you know that section of the tree is dead and that you've got serious fungal problems. Myco in the soil is friendly stuff, IMHO - generally helpful to roots. High phosphorous levels are usually 'lethal' (inhibitive might be the right word) for myco.

and going out to look at it and ponder, I'd concluded I was going to get rid of the myco as best I could IE make a new box with plans to transplant (including bare-rooting/hosing the roots; was on the fence whether I was going to prune the top to match the diminished capacities of the bottom, or just (partially)defoliate it...it's had too much growth lately, disturbing the roots would likely cause insufficient resources to the canopy)

That solution you mention sounds like it'd be good on surface colonization but this myco has 'had' that area for like a month, the shoots nearby haven't been adversely affected yet so after reading your comment I'm still on the fence whether I should bare-root & re-box (it needs off the ground anyways, current box is stationary on-ground) to try and get rid of this myco w/o losing the thing, the infected section is not small...the bark on bougies is so thick & spongy, I'm going to at least get a start now by going out with hydrogen peroxide & cleaning / removing infected bark (should I be doing flood waterings, using tarp/sheeting, etc when doing this? Or just don't be overzealous in how much I spray on the bark, keep it off the substrate, etc?)

 

[0soyoung]

Peroxide can be used as a root dip and soil drench. BUT I ERRED above. I don't recommend using a solution any than one quarter cup per quart which is 1: 7 (not 1:3)

You are right that just like all non-systemic fungicides, it only works on surfaces. Systemics, on the other hand only work on living tissues.

You say the affected area is black/dark and spongy which sounds like it is already dead. I haven't had quite this kind of problem, but I think you need to remove the spongy bark and the decayed wood underneath. That dead wood is infected and unless you get rid of it, it will be a competition between the pathogenic fungi and the tree's capacity to compartmentalize it. If you must remove it from the pot to accomplish the task, then I guess you will need to repot it. But I don't think your problem is addressed by 'repotting'.

Again, I'm not experienced with bougies nor a problem like I understand you to be describing. I think @Bonsai Nut is a bougie guy. Maybe he will give you some far better advice than I can.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Again, I'm not experienced with bougies nor a problem like I understand you to be describing. I think @Bonsai Nut is a bougie guy. Maybe he will give you some far better advice than I can.

Going back to the original post, I am trying to understand what the problem is (?) Your bougie looks completely healthy. Yes, there are some bad root fungi that can attack living plant tissue, but there are also beneficial, if not symbiotic fungi that have neutral or positive benefits to your tree. Just because you see a mushroom in your grow box does not mean there is cause for alarm. It may just be a beneficial fungus that is breaking down the extra organics in your soil. Let your tree be your guide.

I will just say that bougies can put up with a wide range of growth conditions - but they don't like it when you mess with their roots. If you are worried about excessive fungus, I would just move it into full sun, and cut the watering 100%. In Florida in August, I find it hard to believe that a deep plant box will ever fully dry out, and if you are worried about it too much you could always water once per week. But I would not repot / replant in the middle of summer if I didn't have an emergency reason for doing so, and your tree looks super healthy.

 

[SU2]

Peroxide can be used as a root dip and soil drench. BUT I ERRED above. I don't recommend using a solution any than one quarter cup per quart which is 1: 7 (not 1:3)

You are right that just like all non-systemic fungicides, it only works on surfaces. Systemics, on the other hand only work on living tissues.

You say the affected area is black/dark and spongy which sounds like it is already dead. I haven't had quite this kind of problem, but I think you need to remove the spongy bark and the decayed wood underneath. That dead wood is infected and unless you get rid of it, it will be a competition between the pathogenic fungi and the tree's capacity to compartmentalize it. If you must remove it from the pot to accomplish the task, then I guess you will need to repot it. But I don't think your problem is addressed by 'repotting'.

Thanks a ton for the help here! And no I wasn't thinking that re-potting had any inherent benefit, rather that removing the soil from beneath substrate-surface around the entire affected area would be necessary just for treating the bark but that, if I were to guess the 'fullest' response to it, would be to bare-root it (for purposes of replacing as much media as possible) after having removed bad bark / peroxide-scrubbed what was under it, at that point it'd be in a new box with new substrate, the bark/surfaces cleared, it'd be in a much better position to not just get ravaged again (like it would if I just went out there with a tooth-brush + peroxide and merely got what was visible above the substrate line; that'd slow it, I can almost guarantee it'd be back!)

 

[SU2]

Going back to the original post, I am trying to understand what the problem is (?) Your bougie looks completely healthy. Yes, there are some bad root fungi that can attack living plant tissue, but there are also beneficial, if not symbiotic fungi that have neutral or positive benefits to your tree. Just because you see a mushroom in your grow box does not mean there is cause for alarm. It may just be a beneficial fungus that is breaking down the extra organics in your soil. Let your tree be your guide.

It's a spot on the trunk, about the size of a softball and starting at the substrate surface, that's dark black/spongey/slimey and has the white-cottony stuff trying to grow on it, the shoots in that area are fine but if it progresses it's going to end up causing damage (this occurred because I made a box with wayyy too-tall walls, I took a saw to them a couple weeks ago when the mushrooms began so that air/light could get in there better)

I will just say that bougies can put up with a wide range of growth conditions - but they don't like it when you mess with their roots. If you are worried about excessive fungus, I would just move it into full sun, and cut the watering 100%. In Florida in August, I find it hard to believe that a deep plant box will ever fully dry out, and if you are worried about it too much you could always water once per week. But I would not repot / replant in the middle of summer if I didn't have an emergency reason for doing so, and your tree looks super healthy.

That's reassuring, thanks And re watering, even though it rains it's often wimpy rains and with all the foliage on this not a ton gets into the substrate...I water when the top ~2" is dry (is that too-much?), it's in a substrate that's mostly DE granules, something I'll be changing to mostly perlite (80/20 perlite/DE) next time it is re-boxed! But does that sound like I'm watering too-much? I guess I look at it with those top 2" dry, and there is a TON of surface roots / roots in that 2" zone (wondering how much are plant roots and how much are myco hyphae...may be 99% the latter), so I've always been hesitant to let it get drier than 2" but with all DE I imagine that makes for a wetter bottom...there is a 2" layer of large lava rocks at the bottom to promote drainage at least! This was my first large yamadori collected, certainly not a prime example lol!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

And re watering, even though it rains it's often wimpy rains and with all the foliage on this not a ton gets into the substrate...

The bougies in my landscape grow in 100% impacted hard clay and don't get a drop of rain for 8 months straight. I'm not talking "little rain" or "only occasional rain" - I'm talking not a drop. The soil is bone dry to at least 1' below the surface. The growth stops in the summer and they just sit there looking pretty and green, and when the rains come in the winter they burst forth in flowers and then grow like weeds. If I don't trim them they will throw 12' of growth in three months. I have a bougainvillea hedge by my citrus that if I don't keep religiously trimmed will overgrow my adult citrus trees in 6 months.

 

[SU2]

The bougies in my landscape grow in 100% impacted hard clay and don't get a drop of rain for 8 months straight. I'm not talking "little rain" or "only occasional rain" - I'm talking not a drop. The soil is bone dry to at least 1' below the surface. The growth stops in the summer and they just sit there looking pretty and green, and when the rains come in the winter they burst forth in flowers and then grow like weeds. If I don't trim them they will throw 12' of growth in three months. I have a bougainvillea hedge by my citrus that if I don't keep religiously trimmed will overgrow my adult citrus trees in 6 months.

That's funny, I'd always been told it was the dryness in fall that caused the bougies to bloom here!

And yeah when they're in-ground and large like that they grow like weeds, I maintain some large landscape ones (15'+ heights & widths) and the past couple months they've been in their fastest growth phase, soon enough they'll start flowering more often (august was our wettest month, september sees around a 1/3 drop in rain which, given the context of this thread, is something I'm pretty keen on!!)

 

[GGB]

@0soyoung I was going to spend some money on Captan brand fungicide for needle blight, do you feel that peroxide is as effective in your experience? I'd love to save the money and spare the extra chemicals

EDIT! I missed a post above, gotcha and thanks for explaining

 

[0soyoung]

@0soyoung I was going to spend some money on Captan brand fungicide for needle blight, do you feel that peroxide is as effective in your experience? I'd love to save the money and spare the extra chemicals

I suggest you try regular peroxide spraying and see if it works for you. If not, get the Captan or go directly to using a systemic.

I've been fortunate to have not had many needle fungus problems, so I cannot really say that it is as effective. But for the last several years I have exclusively used 2 tablespoon peroxide. I keep a quart sprayer constantly loaded and regularly use it because it can be used on any and everything in my collection. I still have my benomyl, but haven't used it in years. Peroxide just becomes plain ole everyday water after its done its thing, so it is eco-friendly with no possibility of residual toxicity.

Of course, no spray is going to do anything to an infection that is inside the needle. Either remove the affected needles (because they are a spore source) and/or start using a systemic.

 

[GGB]

@0soyoung thank you so much, I will begin treating all my trees with peroxide immediately. Only one of my pines is showing blight currently but it's so bad that even this years growth is banded in yellow. I really wanted this tree to make it but I'm wondering if it would just be better to toss it before the fungus spreads.

 

[SU2]

I suggest you try regular peroxide spraying and see if it works for you. If not, get the Captan or go directly to using a systemic.

I've been fortunate to have not had many needle fungus problems, so I cannot really say that it is as effective. But for the last several years I have exclusively used 2 tablespoon peroxide. I keep a quart sprayer constantly loaded and regularly use it because it can be used on any and everything in my collection. I still have my benomyl, but haven't used it in years. Peroxide just becomes plain ole everyday water after its done its thing, so it is eco-friendly with no possibility of residual toxicity.

Of course, no spray is going to do anything to an infection that is inside the needle. Either remove the affected needles (because they are a spore source) and/or start using a systemic.

I know you're referring to coniferous stuff but 2tbsp/qrt is way lower than the 1:7 ratio mentioned earlier, I imagine you mean use the stronger stuff on moldy bark, and the weaker stuff as the preventative/treatment on foliage?

Thanks again for all the info here, was very happy to learn that peroxide breaks down fast / doesn't leave nasties, had been planning on some serious tarping/protection while using it, in an attempt to ensure that not a drop got on my soil- seems I was wayy over-concerned about the potential dangers of the stuff!! What are your thoughts on vinegar for similar situations? I've also heard vinegar suggested and it appealed to me for being more natural, though I'm not quite sure whether the acetic acid in it just evaporates-out or if it remains after the water has evaporated..

 

[0soyoung]

I know you're referring to coniferous stuff but 2tbsp/qrt is way lower than the 1:7 ratio mentioned earlier, I imagine you mean use the stronger stuff on moldy bark, and the weaker stuff as the preventative/treatment on foliage?

Yes, exactly.

I think @milehigh_7 uses 1:15 as a soil drench when root rot is suspected.

Thanks again for all the info here, was very happy to learn that peroxide breaks down fast / doesn't leave nasties, had been planning on some serious tarping/protection while using it, in an attempt to ensure that not a drop got on my soil- seems I was wayy over-concerned about the potential dangers of the stuff!! What are your thoughts on vinegar for similar situations? I've also heard vinegar suggested and it appealed to me for being more natural, though I'm not quite sure whether the acetic acid in it just evaporates-out or if it remains after the water has evaporated..

3% peroxide, right out of the bottle is a good antiseptic (stings a little). It is also the stuff used to bleach hair (in amateur land).t

I'm not a chemist, so I cannot tell you what the possible reaction by-products are. But I think it is suggested to use on moss just because it is a common household acid. It is very soluble in water, so it is easy to dilute/wash away. Meanwhile, it just makes your tree smell like a green salad.

 

[M. Frary]

3% peroxide, right out of the bottle is a good antiseptic

A capful in the livewell perks oxygen depleted bass right up.

 

[SU2]

The vinegar thing is for moss. Moss doesn't grow in strongly acidic conditions (nor on metal). Peroxide works on a broad spectrum of fungi and bacteria and isn't particularly threatening to tree roots. Get 3% peroxide from the grocery/pharmacy. Dilute it with at least 3 parts water. Scrub gently with an soft toothbrush. Diluting 2 tablespoons peroxide to a quart is a handy spray fungicide and essentially Zerotol at their lable directions.

It almost looks like Zerotol is both, their chemical is paracetic acic which:

"forms upon treatment of acetic acid with hydrogen peroxide:[3]

H2O2 + CH3CO2H ⇌ CH3CO3H + H2O"

Vinegar's acid is 'acetic acid', I haven't looked into it but can't help wondering how easy/straight-forward it'd be to simply make your own 'zerotol mix', I've been using diluted peroxide as discussed earlier but upon re-reading this I'm really wondering how practical it is to mix the two (and how much better it may be!)