I was wondering about micorhiza

[YukiShiro]

So I'm new to this forum, and I have a lot of questions about pines, I'm from south africa so we don't have a lot of people training pines.

Micorhiza (excuse the spelling)
How does it establish itself if the pine was grown from seed in a sterile medium, will it be pressent after the pine seed germinated, and have grown on for a year or so? What is the implications if there wouldn't be present. I'm all eyes since I'm hungry to learn and have a lot of questions lol

 

[Kevster]

This is a great question for which I have no answer for. I am now very curious as well!
I know the tree would survive with out it. I've read and have watched some videos of people wash the roots when transplanting, rinsing any of the mycorrhiza fungus off. They say a strong healthy established root source is more important than the fungus. Others say the fungus is more important. I personally never bear root or rinse pines always leaving some of the old soil behind to kick off the new growth and establishment of the fungus. I'm sure most here will agree with the same as I.

But I'm very curious as to the pines being grown from seed in a sterile medium.
Someone will have an answer.

 

[YukiShiro]

Okay that's good to hear!

I wouldn't wash them off if I found any...I mean this fungus helps feed the tree, how would one form strong healthy roots by depriving them of nutrients they could have taken up. In any case, here in SA the air is so dry that washing a bonsai's roots means death 9 out of ten times... I've learnt this the hard way,

Thnx for the reply kev

Herman

 

[0soyoung]

Micorhiza (excuse the spelling)
How does it establish itself if the pine was grown from seed in a sterile medium, will it be pressent after the pine seed germinated, and have grown on for a year or so? What is the implications if there wouldn't be present. I'm all eyes since I'm hungry to learn and have a lot of questions lol

Interesting question. Google answers all (if you know how to ask). But you might start with this paper. IMHO, it answers the essence of your question.

 

[YukiShiro]

...the info is about the level of efficiency of mycorhizza in correlation to the phosphor concentration in the soil...it only ever stated that when inoculating(introducing) mycorhizza into soil one must first test the concentration of phosphor, as it will inhibit the fungus,

Are you implying that there will not be as I've not introduced it to the soil?

Your answer is kind of cryptic, or I've misread the article... :?

Let me re phrase the question

I have 1 year old pine seedlings that I've grown from seed, there where no fungus in the soil before I sowed the seeds. Will there be any fungus there now?

 

[Stan Kengai]

Your pine planted in a sterile potting mix will not have mycorhizal fungus. But you can easily introduce it by either: 1) planting the tree in the ground for a growing season or 2) incorporating some fresh decomposed pine needles (from under a live pine tree) into your planting mix during repotting.

 

[0soyoung]

This paper is telling us that the primary benefit of micorrhiza is for phosphorous uptake. Micorrhiza also aid in the uptake of trace minerals, primarily copper and zinc. If these elements are in ample supply in the soil (say, because we are fertilizing), micorrhiza don't provide any advantage and may be discouraged from growing (the micorrhiza).

...the info is about the level of efficiency of mycorhizza in correlation to the phosphor concentration in the soil...it only ever stated that when inoculating(introducing) mycorhizza into soil one must first test the concentration of phosphor, as it will inhibit the fungus,

Are you implying that there will not be as I've not introduced it to the soil?

Your answer is kind of cryptic, or I've misread the article... :?

I have 1 year old pine seedlings that I've grown from seed, there where no fungus in the soil before I sowed the seeds. Will there be any fungus there now?

Micorrhiza from your environment MAY colonize you soil. Your trees can be happy and healthy with or without them. It just depends on how much phosphorous is available in your soil. If you use a balanced chemical fertilizer, your soil likely has ample phosphorous for micorrhiza to have negligible benefit. Further, micorrhiza don't grow well under this circumstance anyway. On the other hand, if you are into organic fertilizers (i.e., manures), you may need micorrhiza to avoid your trees suffering from phosphorous and trace mineral deficiency.

Since phosporous run-off causes algal blooms in lakes, rivers, and oceans, the importance of micorrhiza is to large-scale/field growing. Soil well populated with the appropriate micorrhiza will require less (if not no) supplemental phosporous. Less phosphorous being thrown around means less phosphorous finding its way into runoff. Therefore, micorrhiza are very beneficial because it reduces phosphorous pollution of the waters of the earth. I try to avoid using any phosphates and as little chemical fertilizer as I can on the grounds around my home. My plantings are happy and healthy and I have lots of micorrhiza growing in my soil. But my trees in pots (they are not legitimate bonsai yet) get chemical fertilizer. Despite that, I have had mushrooms (the fruiting body of fungi) pop up in some of my pots. I don't know if they represent beneficial micorrhiza or not, but the fugi clearly isn't doing any harm.

 

[cmeg1]

I use the product 'Great White' by Plant Success.It works best if the soil is slightly porous.It is applied every two weeks as a soil drench.It has mycorhiza and beneficial bacteria.I see the mycorhiza around the edges of the pot where it drains better and the inoculant can actually touch the root.
As far as phospherous,I read that as long as the NPK number is below 10,it will not put the fungi to sleep.I have read that it does not kill the fungus but puts it to sleep so to speak.It will re-awaken.And I also read that you can grow fungi with chemical fertilizer's.In my pines from seed in colander's,The edges are caked with white fluff attaching to the roots and I use dyna-gro 7-9-5.The photo is just after watering.The stuff looks more and more like mycorhiza as it dries.

 

[YukiShiro]

Tnx for the great info osoyoung and cmeg.

I don't know if that product will be available in South Africa, will keep a look out for it though. Studying rules my life atm so I'm not on bonsai nut as often as I like to be

 

[jk_lewis]

Your pine planted in a sterile potting mix will not have mycorhizal fungus. But you can easily introduce it by either: 1) planting the tree in the ground for a growing season or 2) incorporating some fresh decomposed pine needles (from under a live pine tree) into your planting mix during repotting.

Probably not if he's from South Africa; the right fungus (it is VERY species specific) won't be in their soils because pines are not native to the southern hemisphere.

 

[Bill S]

Collin Lewis has an in depth article on michorizzae, if you can't find it PM me, I can send it to you in a WORD doc if you want.

It isn't necessary, but helps when conditions are less than optimal for soil and ferts available, if you have good soil and everything is available, it may not even grow well in your pots.

 

[Poink88]

Read some here...

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/faculty/davies/research/mycorrhizae.html
and here
http://heartspring.net/mycorrhizal_fungi_benefits.html

 

[YukiShiro]

Thanx for all the great info guys

I have planted some black pine seeds after stratifying them for two months at 3 degrees celcius. They pushed small roots and so I planted them in flat seed trays. Out of the ten I've planted only one came up. So today I investigated and was rather ticked off with what I found: the other seeds kind of, this is hard to explain acurately. They look like amber...golden brown but you can see through them, this is inside the outer shells of the seeds. Can it be heat that did that or too much water? I am kind of mad at myself...lol, though my red pine seeds had a success rate of 80% not 10%. Please help

 

[YukiShiro]

On hindsight I thought to give some general info on my location, season and temperatures

South Africa
Right now it is very early spring
Air is very dry with temperatures going up to 31 Celcius(around 80)

Its not that hot yet...but as I understand pines agree more with colder temperatures?
I am a NOOB when it comes to pines, since I've only started getting material to style 3 years ago. I am however not new to bonsai, I've been styling our indigenous figs and thorn trees and some other really nice deciduous types BUT! I'm really drawn to pines! There is something very majestic about them, so bare with me! I'm going to pester you guys with a lot of questions since most South African bonsai experts are reluctant to get bitten by the pine bug : "it takes too long"

 

[YukiShiro]

On hindsight I thought to give some general info on my location, season and temperatures

South Africa
Right now it is very early spring
Air is very dry with temperatures going up to 31 Celcius(around 80)

Its not that hot yet...but as I understand pines agree more with colder temperatures?
I am a NOOB when it comes to pines, since I've only started getting material to style 3 years ago. I am however not new to bonsai, I've been styling our indigenous figs and thorn trees and some other really nice deciduous types BUT! I'm really drawn to pines! There is something very majestic about them, so bare with me! I'm going to pester you guys with a lot of questions since most South African bonsai experts are reluctant to get bitten by the pine bug : "it takes too long"

 

[cmeg1]

With my experiance growing black pine from seed,I came to realize a STERILE seed compost is the best to sprout them in,until they loose their succulent stems.They can be very prone to damping off especially if really warm.It is usually best to buy a couple hundred more seed than you need,that way you can choose the best that grow.The first year is kinda' slow for most of them.They can go through some weird color changes too that make you think they are not healthy,but just hold on till the Spring and they really take off.I read in my pines book that they are zones 4 or 5 to 8.That means -9.4 to -6.7 is mildest winter lows they normally thrive in.I have heard of them growing in Hawaii as ready made bonsai though.What is your winter lowest temperature?

 

[YukiShiro]

I used sterile germination mix cmeg

Coldest is about -6celcius, hottest is 36celcius

Tnx for the tips, very interesting to see!