how to backbudding on Scott's pine

[Aaronkslater]

So I think I have a grip on this but am looking for clarification and advice.

I wan't backbudding at A
Here are the options I see:
cut at B and cross my fingers.
cut at C and then keep cutting back to the furthest back viable candle for a few years to drive growth in closer
cut back only to closest in viable candle each year (maybe the most conservative?)
remove all needles except this years and grow the pine vigorously to promote adventitious budding.

This is a vigorously growing Scott's pine,
To clarify, the trunk is right outside the shot on the right.
what are your opinions of these methods? What would you do?
I think now is a good time to do any pruning, but, I'm not sure.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Cypress187]

I'm kinda the worst pine bonsaist on this forum, but if you chop at B you really really need to cross your fingers.

 

[StarTurtle]

So I think I have a grip on this but am looking for clarification and advice.

I wan't backbudding at A
Here are the options I see:
cut at B and cross my fingers.
cut at C and then keep cutting back to the furthest back viable candle for a few years to drive growth in closer
cut back only to closest in viable candle each year (maybe the most conservative?)
remove all needles except this years and grow the pine vigorously to promote adventitious budding.

This is a vigorously growing Scott's pine, what are your opinions of these methods? What would you do?
I think now is a good time to do any pruning, but, I'm not sure.

Thanks for any advice!

Cut at C and keep working it back. If you cut at B it will abort that branch and send all the energy to the branch on the right of it.

 

[Aaronkslater]

StarTurtle,

Cut at C would probably look like: Cut at C now. then next year: choose buds in spring, cut or pluck old needles in fall? repeat

does that sound right?

 

[Dalmat]

Cut new shoots-candles ( blue ) fertilize a lot put it in the sun and expect back budding at A.
Option B you will lose that branch, no matter fingers cross or even a couple prayers.
Option C, 90% that you lost it too

 

[garywood]

Arron, option "D" would be another approach. Do not cut anything. Scots pine back-bud on their own when they are young and strong. Feeding aggressively this year and probably next year also will give both results, A strong tree and back-buds on the trunk. The tree is young and cutting only slows down its development.

 

[Aaronkslater]

Arron, option "D" would be another approach. Do not cut anything. Scots pine back-bud on their own when they are young and strong. Feeding aggressively this year and probably next year also will give both results, A strong tree and back-buds on the trunk. The tree is young and cutting only slows down its development.

just to clarify here is a picture of the whole tree:

base of trunk is about 4 1/2 inches across. it is young, relatively.

Garywood, your approach is a bit counter intuitive to me, I would think that if I just let it grow the branches would get longer and thicker and I wouldn't necessarily get budding back closer to the trunk.
I am a little afraid that I would loose all chance of refinement. I also got the impression that the older the wood was the less likely that you will get adventitious buds so I wanted to try and establish some ramification early on. Or at least some choices for later ramification.
I guess this hasn't been your experience?
would you remove or pinch this years candles at all? what about needle removal?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

How long is the tree in the box? If repotted this year, it might need a year to get full power and then it might be better to do nothing. In that way option D is good because strong pinus sylvestris buds back. When the tree is at peak health, you cut back later in summer after everything is hardened off and you prune back to a GROWING branch that is strong enough to keep pulling next year. Assuming you have a nice and healthy pine you cut back not only this branch, but every branch on the tree as far as you need at the same time. Keep enough growing foliage! Sometimes it is better to let the tree grow for 2 years and cut back 2 years at a time...

 

[Aaronkslater]

How long is the tree in the box? If repotted this year, it might need a year to get full power and then it might be better to do nothing. In that way option D is good because strong pinus sylvestris buds back. When the tree is at peak health, you cut back later in summer after everything is hardened off and you prune back to a GROWING branch that is strong enough to keep pulling next year. Assuming you have a nice and healthy pine you cut back not only this branch, but every branch on the tree as far as you need at the same time. Keep enough growing foliage! Sometimes it is better to let the tree grow for 2 years and cut back 2 years at a time...

Ok great info. When you say Growing branch I assume that you mean a branch that includes a candle and not just old needles. Is that correct?
I also figured cutting everything at the same time was better as it seems more effective on other species but thanks for confirming this.
Lastly, with option D, no cutting, just encourage strong growth and expect back budding, would you do any needle cutting or plucking? any candle cutting at all?
thanks!

 

[Paulpash]

Garywood's advice (although counter intuitive is right). The branch you identify looks to be fairly juvenile and it will backbud when there are a surplus of starches running through it AND it's not in shade. Cutting back reduces vigour therefore your chances of getting budding there reduces. Sylvestris want to back bud when energy allows - get the needle area and they will.

There is an Option E for the sceptic or impatient: learn to graft .... or take it to someone who knows how.

 

[Adair M]

At "C", cut out the middle branch. Whenever you have a place where multiple branches emminate from one spot, reduce to two.

If you want, cut off the new growth at the Blue arrows. This will force the tree to backbud.

Cutting at B will cause the branch to die. You always have to leave some foliage on pines.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Ok great info. When you say Growing branch I assume that you mean a branch that includes a candle and not just old needles. Is that correct?
I also figured cutting everything at the same time was better as it seems more effective on other species but thanks for confirming this.
Lastly, with option D, no cutting, just encourage strong growth and expect back budding, would you do any needle cutting or plucking? any candle cutting at all?
thanks!

Yes correct, you cut back to a candle that grew this year (next year this one will be strong growing and will promote the backbudding you started this year to elongate eventually). Plucking needles will cause light to reach the branch and backbudding will occur. Do you want buds at that place? No, you want them further back. So you leave the needles so the tree accumulates more energy. Between C and B you have 2 shoots from 1 to 3 years old, they are there because the tree had enough energy to let them grow. Next month (assuming the tree is healthy enough) you cut back to the strongest. You will see new buds forming between the place you cut and B in fall. Lot of the energy will flow to the other limb where there is actually backbudding near the base. You can shorten this one to those shoots i guess. It might be a good option to proceed with this limb (depending on the movement). It's not clear where the branch you are referring to is located. There are always different options, so its not because info we give is contradicting one of these options is less right. What you do is a choice based on the vigor of the tree, and the goal you would like to achieve. It's difficult for others to give the correct answer since we don't have a total overview of the tree. (watering, feeding, growing, you idea, ...)

 

[Harunobu]

I think it is safe to cut at C.

No dependable natural backbudding. You need to prune. This is Scot's pine. At B it will abortfor sure..

If you do some form of D, eventually you still want to cut back into old wood and but at C. So I don't know why you would wait two years and then try it. Best odds are when it is younger. You eventually want to cut it back even more anyway. It you don't cut back into old wood, it will barely badbud on old wood, if any.

This all assumes the tree has been allowed to grow freely for some time and has the strength to bounce back.

I cut back Scot's pine two weeks ago. Last week I didn't see anything yet. Today I returned to from my university town and I have backbudding on old wood. To balance out the risk I cut back in old wood where I have tree branches from the same spot.