How long do YOU let it go?

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

I posted in a smaller thread erier, but wanted to see others' approach. After losing a few nursery stock to a lack of knowledge early on, I've tried to lean towards acquiring specimens and learning the species for a while instead of hacking it up like a young Sailor in barber school. For those with a zest for patience, how long do you let nursery stock grow for to either thicken trunks, or learn the species? Is this a foolish approach without some simple initial styling?

For example, I got this Scots pine for $50 yesterday. It's healthy, rather mature-ish (5-10 years?, idk), and I think it's very awesome. I've been wanting to learn more about pine husbandry, so it seemed great. My plan is to at least let it grow for a season or two so I don't kill it right away like the poor baby Mugo I sacrificed with a hack and repot.



Interested to hear some inputs, thanks all.

Cj

 

[penumbra]

It is obviously a compact or dwarf form. What is the cultivar name. I love Scots Pines.

 

[Scorpius]

Thats would be Moseri Scott's Pine. I have one. They back bud easily.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

Thats would be Moseri Scott's Pine. I have one. They back bud easily.

Yes, it's Moseri! Sorry for the confusion

 

[Lorax7]

Learning about the broader categories of trees often provides enough guidance to get started without making any grave errors. Sure, it’s undeniably better to know all the particulars about the species you’re dealing with, but your life is finite and the body of knowledge of the sciences of horticulture and botany is vast. Gotta get your hands dirty at some point. Also, remember that this is a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun. You do not need to get a PhD in plant sciences before wielding wire and pruners.

Knowing what the tree’s hardiness zone is and knowing some broad categories it belongs to (i.e., single-flush pine, double-flush pine, maple, azalea, ficus, redwood, juniper, etc.) gets you surprisingly far along the path toward bonsai.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

Learning about the broader categories of trees often provides enough guidance to get started without making any grave errors. Sure, it’s undeniably better to know all the particulars about the species you’re dealing with, but your life is finite and the body of knowledge of the sciences of horticulture and botany is vast. Gotta get your hands dirty at some point. Also, remember that this is a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun. You do not need to get a PhD in plant sciences before wielding wire and pruners.

Knowing what the tree’s hardiness zone is and knowing some broad categories it belongs to (i.e., single-flush pine, double-flush pine, maple, azalea, ficus, redwood, juniper, etc.) gets you surprisingly far along the path toward bonsai.

Well put

 

[Shibui]

For those with a zest for patience, how long do you let nursery stock grow for to either thicken trunks, or learn the species? Is this a foolish approach without some simple initial styling?

Having some trouble interpreting the real thrust of this question.
In my mind every tree is different so there's no consistency in how long I'll wait for it to develop. Seedlings will usually take longer than older trees. Trees with large chops will take longer than those without. Each species grows and develop at different rates so Trident maple will be ready much quicker than juniper or oak.
How large do I want the bonsai? Larger trees need thicker trunk so will take longer than a shohin tree.
What style? Literati have thinner trunks and can be developed relatively quickly
What standard of bonsai? Mallsai can be made in days while real show quality bonsai will take years to develop to the standard I expect.

I often grow and work on trees for 10-15 year before they even see a bonsai pot. Even mini bonsai can take 5 or more years to develop to the standard I expect now.

Some species can be allowed to grow freely or with little training and still make reasonable bonsai in the end. Species that don't bud on bare wood need much more intervention during that growing phase to maintain viable growth that I'll use later for the actual bonsai.

As far as learning the species it can take half a lifetime to truly understand the finer points of a species. Sometimes deficiencies in knowledge and technique don't show up for years. I thought I had a good handle on growing pines but after around 10 years I realised they were getting away as I did not know the finer points of pine growth management.

Anyway, no matter how I look at the question I can't see that there could be any real answer.

 

[sorce]

Moseri? Looks Mo Sorry the way it droops like that. Normal?

For me, it's a balance between growth and, as BVF put it well that I remember, keeping low things viable.

Just viable so they don't outgrow the future design, and can be cut back to.

Light on the viable keeps them that way, excessive fert wastes their time.

Sorce

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

Having some trouble interpreting the real thrust of this question.
In my mind every tree is different so there's no consistency in how long I'll wait for it to develop. Seedlings will usually take longer than older trees. Trees with large chops will take longer than those without. Each species grows and develop at different rates so Trident maple will be ready much quicker than juniper or oak.
How large do I want the bonsai? Larger trees need thicker trunk so will take longer than a shohin tree.
What style? Literati have thinner trunks and can be developed relatively quickly
What standard of bonsai? Mallsai can be made in days while real show quality bonsai will take years to develop to the standard I expect.

I often grow and work on trees for 10-15 year before they even see a bonsai pot. Even mini bonsai can take 5 or more years to develop to the standard I expect now.

Some species can be allowed to grow freely or with little training and still make reasonable bonsai in the end. Species that don't bud on bare wood need much more intervention during that growing phase to maintain viable growth that I'll use later for the actual bonsai.

As far as learning the species it can take half a lifetime to truly understand the finer points of a species. Sometimes deficiencies in knowledge and technique don't show up for years. I thought I had a good handle on growing pines but after around 10 years I realised they were getting away as I did not know the finer points of pine growth management.

Anyway, no matter how I look at the question I can't see that there could be any real answer.

Really just wanted feedback on the approach I take and see what others do. It's those finer points I am interested in learning, but I see there needs to be failure to truly learn and grow.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

Moseri? Looks Mo Sorry the way it droops like that. Normal?

For me, it's a balance between growth and, as BVF put it well that I remember, keeping low things viable.

Just viable so they don't outgrow the future design, and can be cut back to.

Light on the viable keeps them that way, excessive fert wastes their time.

Sorce

Yes normal may have been the wrong word haha. I appreciate the feedback. This is my first cold winter with any of these plants, so them surviving that will be test 1. At least have a few months to study each species growth and approach!

 

[LuZiKui]

I think you're on the right track but I'll throw in my .02 cents. As a fellow beginner I feel like when I first started I wanted to get everything in a bonsai pot ASAP. I now realize that until you have a really solid plan and a vision for the finished design you're better off leaving them in larger containers and letting them thicken/develop, similar to what @Shibui said above. Eric at Bonsaify just put out a great video (most of them are) where he showed 2 trees that were replanted around the same time. One into a small bonsai pot and the other into a 5 gal training pot. The 5 gallon one was throwing out huge new shoots and looked way more vigorous.

As far as that Scotts pine, it looks like it could have a pretty good trunk already and make a good shohin style tree if you wanted to go that direction. But I would leave it in the current container, or repot it into a similar container if it's root bound, and do the heavy design work prior to putting into a bonsai container. I know some trees can handle a heavy prune/cutback AND root work in the same year, but to be on the safe side I would only do one of those things per year and this tree probably needs a restyle before being replanted. Cool tree though!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Really just wanted feedback on the approach I take and see what others do. It's those finer points I am interested in learning, but I see there needs to be failure to truly learn and grow.

I normally pick something up during the growing season, call it year zero. I do nothing to it year zero, just observe, water it. and decide what my future plans are. Usually spring of year one will be the repot. Note, I tend to do repot only, no hack back. Especially with conifers, repotting is traumatic, I don't combine repotting with other things.

Wiring is the least stressful thing we do to our trees, You can pretty much wire any time.

If growth after repotting was vigorous, year two can start "hack back". If growth was weak, do nothing. Maybe just wiring. Then start pruning in year 3.

Deciduous trees seem to survive the repot, hack wire and style all at once much better than most conifers.

Note: my winters are colder than 90% of the climates of the various You Tube Bonsai Professionals. They may get away with much more all at once. I don't have a greenhouse, all my trees are just set on the ground for the winter. No protective greenhouses. So I take it slower, go easier on my trees.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

I normally pick something up during the growing season, call it year zero. I do nothing to it year zero, just observe, water it. and decide what my future plans are. Usually spring of year one will be the repot. Note, I tend to do repot only, no hack back. Especially with conifers, repotting is traumatic, I don't combine repotting with other things.

Wiring is the least stressful thing we do to our trees, You can pretty much wire any time.

If growth after repotting was vigorous, year two can start "hack back". If growth was weak, do nothing. Maybe just wiring. Then start pruning in year 3.

Deciduous trees seem to survive the repot, hack wire and style all at once much better than most conifers.

Note: my winters are colder than 90% of the climates of the various You Tube Bonsai Professionals. They may get away with much more all at once. I don't have a greenhouse, all my trees are just set on the ground for the winter. No protective greenhouses. So I take it slower, go easier on my trees.

Great feedback, quite aligned with how I'm doing it, but maybe not for everybody. Something about forcing the patience factor in this hobby to a certain degree makes it seem more all encompassing. Thank you.

 

[cishepard]

I’m into year 5 with bonsai and I no longer buy nursery stock that does not already have a trunk size that I want for my finished tree. I have plenty of those from years 1 & 2, lol!
I consider myself reasonably patient, but I’m in my sixties and have found that it is a lot more fun to buy something that I can start working on right away. I’ve been buying yamadori that have been recovered and established in pots for the same reason. I can either repot or start shaping and wiring right away depending on the season.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

I’m into year 5 with bonsai and I no longer buy nursery stock that does not already have a trunk size that I want for my finished tree. I have plenty of those from years 1 & 2, lol!
I consider myself reasonably patient, but I’m in my sixties and have found that it is a lot more fun to buy something that I can start working on right away. I’ve been buying yamadori that have been recovered and established in pots for the same reason. I can either repot or start shaping and wiring right away depending on the season.

I like this. @Leo in N E Illinois suggested to me a while back to get trees at different levels of completeness and i took a nugget from that...I agree that buying more established but not finished is a bit more rewarding for some. It's a different journey for all!

My birthday is coming up and a new addition might be in order. Cheers!

 

[M. Frary]

You can and should get in there and clean out everything that's dead.
Also clean off the top of the soil down to the roots. No further.
These give you a look at what you have and can formulate a plan for next year.
Your biggest concern at this point should be keeping it alive through the winter.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

You can and should get in there and clean out everything that's dead.
Also clean off the top of the soil down to the roots. No further.
These give you a look at what you have and can formulate a plan for next year.
Your biggest concern at this point should be keeping it alive through the winter.

Thanks for addressing this...is it weird to think that that fluff in there might offer natural winter protection?

 

[Carol 83]

You can and should get in there and clean out everything that's dead.
Also clean off the top of the soil down to the roots. No further.
These give you a look at what you have and can formulate a plan for next year.
Your biggest concern at this point should be keeping it alive through the winter.

Good to see you back around here Mike.

 

[M. Frary]

Good to see you back around here Mike.

Figured I'd pop in.

 

[M. Frary]

Thanks for addressing this...is it weird to think that that fluff in there might offer natural winter protection?

Not weird.
But it isn't a warm blooded animal either..
It won't hurt and will let light and air in there.