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bonsai-novice

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Due to the current lockdown, I thought I would have a go at something new. I think I have fairly clayey soil, so I thought I would experiment and see whether I can make some actual clay from the ground.
So far, I have dug down and removed some of the deeper earth which is very clay like, and I have suspended it in boiling water to help any clay get into solution whilst allowing the organic matter, and stones and sand to seperate out. Now these have been removed, I have seived the liquid and I am now just waiting for it to settle out of the water, and I am hoping that there will be some usable clay at the bottom of the bucket.

Should there be any actual clay, I was thinking I could have a bash at making a small pot. Does anyone know whether you can get unglazed bonsai pots as I have only ever seen glazed ones. I think I would be able to fire them up to a temperature where it could be made solid, but I doubt I would be able to get them hot enough to allow them to get glazed.

I am not a potter and I don't think I have even touched clay since I was about 7 years old, so I was wondering whether anyone had and advice, or suggestions about how to make a rustic looking pot?
 
I asked myself a lot of these questions, about 10 months ago! Worked REAL hard to tame my EARTH.. working real hard on taming FIRE right now actually. Heres the thread were I document it.

Terra Cotta: My musings on...and resulting actions with.

Nice! Thank you!!! I will interface PRIOR to THIS purchase. 🤣 3 hours in.. I opened the choke EVER so slightly and actually dropped the pressure, a similar slight “amount” to re-achieve my nice Oxygenated Richard-flame. Shelves are partially glowing.
www.bonsainut.com www.bonsainut.com

What does the clay LOOK like that you find... what’s “in it” when you filter it out? What do you have access to to use for temper? What are you gonna “set it on fire” in?

🤓
 
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Well there isn't really a lot in it. The top layer of the ground is a browny colour which removed as it is presumably mostly organic which is about 1ft deep? then there is a grey-brown layer which is quite deep, probably about 3 foot if not more. Then underneath that layer there is a much more orangey-terracotta layer of earth. I used the grey-brown layer in which there are not many inclusions. There were a few medium sized stones but not a huge amout. When I tried to get it into solution, a lot of the earth large clumps of earth at the bottom of the bucket behaved very much like wet clay that you buy, and I had to manually dissolve it in the water.

As for temper, I have read that I can use either pulverised ceramic pots, ash from the fire, or sea-shells, all of which I have access too, though I am not 100% sure which would be the best.

Concerning firing, We have a lot of firebrick at home, so I was thinking I could make something out of them, or I was thinking I could try going the oldfashioned route and try making a pit kiln.

Obviously you have to leave the product to dry before firing, but is there a maximum time you can leave it, after which you can not longer fire something?
 
Certain Native Americans (whoop whoop!) would asking spend their childrens first 5-ish years making the clay they would need for their life... store it in “cellars”.. for decades.. WET!

Alsoooo Pretty Sure @sorce had a piece from a late-pottery-friend of his that sat a WHILE without firing.
 
Do you have access to a cliff/bluff, eroded area to SEE what your ground looks like.. in layers?
As far as temper
Grog(Crushed wares) is good, Sand is good, Ash is alright, Charcoal is great, silicas/silicates are nice, talc is good for low fire mixes... shells SEEM neat.. but be careful.. you’ll probably cut yourself up...

Try to get the purest JUST clay, filtered from a location... then start pushing the parameters with non-shrinking, or “burn out” tempers.. it’s all about what tempers will allow your clay to “hold that pose”..

Keep updating. And i will help you in any way I can.

(As others.. do the same for me)
 
Firebrick stands a chance at higher temp but it isn't great for insulation. If you could line it with high temp fiber you'll fair better.

They can sit as long as you can keep em dry!

Sorce
 
HorseloverFat said:
Do you have access to a cliff/bluff, eroded area to SEE what your ground looks like.. in layers?
As far as temper
Grog(Crushed wares) is good, Sand is good, Ash is alright, Charcoal is great, silicas/silicates are nice, talc is good for low fire mixes... shells SEEM neat.. but be careful.. you’ll probably cut yourself up...

Try to get the purest JUST clay, filtered from a location... then start pushing the parameters with non-shrinking, or “burn out” tempers.. it’s all about what tempers will allow your clay to “hold that pose”..

Keep updating. And i will help you in any way I can.

(As others.. do the same for me)
Click to expand...

Well, we have a cliff at the beach, in our village, but that is just different layers of loose gravel and sand, and I think this isn't really representitive of the area. our village is bisected by 2 different geological formations according to the British Geological Survey, 1 is predominantly sand, silt, and clay. another is Clay, silt and Sand. So i suppose either way, at least a little bit of clay should be present?

Should sand off the beach be okay, or is it too impure/grainy? alternatively I have some builders sand?

Does Charcoal make the final product very black in appearance?

Do you know if there is a rough % of temper that one should add or is it entirely dependent on your local clay and down to trial and error?
 
Look around see about more cliffs/ravines nearby. This is my best pull spot/vein. 1612464285329.jpeg
Oh yes.. there will be clay.... MOST places in the world have MUCH better clay deposits than I do.. you should definitely be able to pull BETTER clay than I do.

The percentage has a lot to do with the clay in question.. you must realize that unless you are Aqueous-filtering at a COFFEE filter level... your clay will COME with temper..... seriously.. you’d THINK that your smallest strainer/screen is small enough to remove ALL vein-running tempers (sandstone/ quartz sand/ sandSTONE).. it is NOT. 🤓

What I did for a while was strain different particle sizes out and get a feel for how best to utilize any tempers present FIRST... this gives you a true understanding of THAT clay.... you will end up sifting to/and using natural tempers in the ratio. It will be a “feel thing”... i’d recommend getting to know your clays first ONLY using existing tempers within AND sand.. only sand... sift it, rinse it.... find out what you like.. coarse.. fine.... black sand..... i’ve done sand/zebra mussel shell.. (again.. be careful with shells).. BEFORE trying TOO much else.

Charcoal does not exist at kiln temperatures.. this “black” is long gone by the time it’s “fired”

Also regarding percentage.... IFFF you are working with a more pure-filtered clay from the beginning (I just aqueous-slip filter everything, now. At a ludicrous mesh count HAHA) like if YOU are comfortable with calling it your “pure clay component”... you think of your PURE clay component as abundant... but definitely not SINGULAR... the “pure clay component’s” MAIN purpose is to bind the tempers.... we just CONSIDER clay from the ground as “just clay”... but the reality is.. almost ALL clay from the ground has a percentage of NON-clay tempers... you can choose to either: 1. Work WITH the natural tempers and come to an understanding. 🤣
2. ACTUALLY filter all(ish) NON-clay out.. and build from the bottom..

Both are great... ONE just takes much more time.
 
bonsai-novice said:
Well there isn't really a lot in it. The top layer of the ground is a browny colour which removed as it is presumably mostly organic which is about 1ft deep? then there is a grey-brown layer which is quite deep, probably about 3 foot if not more. Then underneath that layer there is a much more orangey-terracotta layer of earth. I used the grey-brown layer in which there are not many inclusions. There were a few medium sized stones but not a huge amount. When I tried to get it into solution, a lot of the earth large clumps of earth at the bottom of the bucket behaved very much like wet clay that you buy, and I had to manually dissolve it in the water.
Click to expand...

If I were you, I would also look at the lowest layer, the orangy-terra cotta colored layer. Especially if it resembles your native brick around the town.

Also, contact your local office of the British Geological Survey, and ask them where the clay pits are, or where they know of usable clay deposits. The info might be on maps purposed for marking exploitable resources.

I would also consider taking a pottery class at the local community college. There is no substitute for a kiln that can actually reach proper temperature. "home building" and "guessing" will lead to a lot of pots that crumble away in short order. May as well learn "right way to do it". Granted, there is no one right way. But low temperature pottery can not be used for outdoor trees that will experience freeze thaw cycling.
 
Rather than re-invent the wheel, look at the "how to's" available around the web. Remember, bonsai pots need to be high fired to have freeze-thaw resistance.

Most of these links, I originally got from @sorce, or threads that he was posting in.


Ceramics Technical Articles

An integrated materials-centric, basic concepts database for traditional ceramics
digitalfire.com digitalfire.com

Andrew Pearson is a UK based bonsai potter, known for very high quality bonsai pottery.

ABCarve is one of our BNut members, he makes great pots.

I have an exquisite pot from ABCarve.

So knowledge will power your experiments with clay. Dig in.
 
HorseloverFat said:
Look around see about more cliffs/ravines nearby. This is my best pull spot/vein. View attachment 352618
Oh yes.. there will be clay.... MOST places in the world have MUCH better clay deposits than I do.. you should definitely be able to pull BETTER clay than I do.

The percentage has a lot to do with the clay in question.. you must realize that unless you are Aqueous-filtering at a COFFEE filter level... your clay will COME with temper..... seriously.. you’d THINK that your smallest strainer/screen is small enough to remove ALL vein-running tempers (sandstone/ quartz sand/ sandSTONE).. it is NOT. 🤓

What I did for a while was strain different particle sizes out and get a feel for how best to utilize any tempers present FIRST... this gives you a true understanding of THAT clay.... you will end up sifting to/and using natural tempers in the ratio. It will be a “feel thing”... i’d recommend getting to know your clays first ONLY using existing tempers within AND sand.. only sand... sift it, rinse it.... find out what you like.. coarse.. fine.... black sand..... i’ve done sand/zebra mussel shell.. (again.. be careful with shells).. BEFORE trying TOO much else.

Charcoal does not exist at kiln temperatures.. this “black” is long gone by the time it’s “fired”

Also regarding percentage.... IFFF you are working with a more pure-filtered clay from the beginning (I just aqueous-slip filter everything, now. At a ludicrous mesh count HAHA) like if YOU are comfortable with calling it your “pure clay component”... you think of your PURE clay component as abundant... but definitely not SINGULAR... the “pure clay component’s” MAIN purpose is to bind the tempers.... we just CONSIDER clay from the ground as “just clay”... but the reality is.. almost ALL clay from the ground has a percentage of NON-clay tempers... you can choose to either: 1. Work WITH the natural tempers and come to an understanding. 🤣
2. ACTUALLY filter all(ish) NON-clay out.. and build from the bottom..

Both are great... ONE just takes much more time.
Click to expand...
Thats an impressive cliff. We don't have anything like that here. So when I was dealing with it, i got it into suspension then I scooped the scum off the top. I then poured most of it into another bucket, and discarded the probably about half a pint along with the stones. I then let it stand in the new bucket for about 5 mins then I strained it through a sieve to remove most of the lumps in the suspension, back into the original (now clean) bucket. I then let it stand again for another 5 mins and then I transferred it back across into the other bucket again, before putting a cover on it and storing it away to allow it to sediment out of solution.

If you use Shells, or ground up pots etc, do you want to make grind it up into a fine powder, or do you want it to be slightly granular?
 
Leo in N E Illinois said:
Rather than re-invent the wheel, look at the "how to's" available around the web. Remember, bonsai pots need to be high fired to have freeze-thaw resistance.

Most of these links, I originally got from @sorce, or threads that he was posting in.


Ceramics Technical Articles

An integrated materials-centric, basic concepts database for traditional ceramics
digitalfire.com digitalfire.com

Andrew Pearson is a UK based bonsai potter, known for very high quality bonsai pottery.

ABCarve is one of our BNut members, he makes great pots.

I have an exquisite pot from ABCarve.

So knowledge will power your experiments with clay. Dig in.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the links, they are really interesting, and helpful :D
 
bonsai-novice said:
Thats an impressive cliff. We don't have anything like that here. So when I was dealing with it, i got it into suspension then I scooped the scum off the top. I then poured most of it into another bucket, and discarded the probably about half a pint along with the stones. I then let it stand in the new bucket for about 5 mins then I strained it through a sieve to remove most of the lumps in the suspension, back into the original (now clean) bucket. I then let it stand again for another 5 mins and then I transferred it back across into the other bucket again, before putting a cover on it and storing it away to allow it to sediment out of solution.

If you use Shells, or ground up pots etc, do you want to make grind it up into a fine powder, or do you want it to be slightly granular?
Click to expand...
Oh man... i can help you streamline that process... do BIG aqueous slips.. filter through your mesh once.. maybe twice.

As to the powder/granular question... it’ll depend.. try both.. they both behave differently.. I DO recommend trying ONE... THEN the other.. if you just use both at once.. you won’t get the results you want and you won’t be able to tell which you like better...

But you SHOULD honestly consider all the OTHER advice offered... this road/path is FULL of heartache...

🤣
 
I don't suppose you know how long it takes for most of the water and the clay to separate? I filled a standard 15L black bucket up to practically the top with the mixture. Each day I have been pouring off the water off the top that has seperated out (which is currently not a lot easier because it is freezing solid). The clay is now a sort of thickish sludgy consistancy and now only takes up about 1/4 of the volume of the bucket. Once a little more water has been removed, do you think it would be a good idea to mix in the temper whilst it is still slightly loose like this, as it would be a lot easier as it could still be mixed with a stick, or would it be better to wait until it is like a proper clay consistency and squidge it all in until mixed?
 
Have you run the slurry through a sieve. I’ve dug clay from my pond and used it to make a pot without using “temper”. Just what I dug out. Fired to ^8 without a problem, but it was a small pot. I mixed the clay into a very watery slurry and kept sieving down to only what would pass through a 100 mesh sieve. I let it settle, siphoned off excess water and let it dry into a cake. Then it was broken up and pulverized with a hammer until I could pass it once again through the sieve. A lot of work is an understatement. I’m currently using it to make karatsu glazes. Karatsu is 40 feldspar, 30 clay, 30 wood ash and 10 iron. Each ingredient will change its look and sometimes drastically.
 
bonsai-novice said:
don't suppose you know how long it takes for most of the water and the clay to separate?
Click to expand...

It depends on the particle size.....and their charges.
These charges hold other particles like grog in suspension, more if the grog is finer.

Are you aiming to spread the sludge on a plaster bat to dry it for use?
I don't like that method because you have to pay hourly (humidity depending) attention to it.

I'll remove top water after a couple days (weeks), stir it, and pour it into a jean leg. Hangs in a plastic bin till it's soft. Only needs checking every other day.

As soon as it's wet again for the final time, the very necessary process of aging begins. All the bacteria and fungals that you washed out mixing it need to regrow. Most of your workabilty comes from this aging process. So you don't want to speed up this part of the process. After someone plasters something for use, it should still be stored for aging for a couple weeks. I'm getting this over in the mixing and drying stages. Slow!

Point is....start a bunch of batches now so you get ahead of the eight ball. Eventually the batch you use today should have been started 2 months ago. Get in a good cycle. All too often, I see folks ruining pots by opening the kiln too early, or firing too fast just to get to some show with product. This haste begins at the beginning of the process. Begin correctly!

Instead of talking about freezing....How about....
You CAN do this indoors. In fact...if you think you can't because it is too messy, you are just doing something wrong. If you have to scrape wet clay from your hand, you are doing something wrong. I've found that the easiest way to speed up this process and do everything right, is to always minimize "clean up". Every cleanup is a waste of time.

Of scums....there are many. But if your scum is from excess Calcium, you won't have success with that clay. You can test it with Hydrochloric acid, but who has that?

Dig Up!

Sorce
 
Thanks, these are all useful tips to know. The clay is now about the consistancy of a thick custard (think trifle custard). When I dunk my finger into it, it feels really smooth. When I tip the bucket up, most of the clay remains pretty well stuck to the bottom I have noticed that tiny little black things appreared to have settled out of the clay, on the surface which are probably about the same size as large grains of sand. I don't have a clue what that could be, though presumably it is not sand as that would have sank to the bottom?

I don't suppose anyone knows of any other ways to try and strain the last of the water out without needing fabric, as I don't really have any going spare. Is it basically a case of spreading it out thinly, and waiting?
 
Yes... black, mineral portions of sand (often magnetic)..

Time works the BEST...

But I’ve been known to take that “custard consistency” (I know what you are talking about) throw it in a soup pot... and cook it at 145-175F (BELOW 100C)... every “lil bit”.. water will have risen to the top.. carefully dump off, until dumping creates “waste”.. then let her cruise, same temps... you end up with dried “cakes”.. you can then RE-hydrate to your liking.

I do this.. with my RAW.. as-close-to-pure clay.. then I have IT, as a mixing component to make SEVERAL batches.. at my own leisure... cause “batchwork” in and of itself is a LONG labor of love... and incorporating “clay processing time” INTO this, makes it much longer, in consideration.

I make a bunch of “pure”, filtered and dried clay FIRST... sets my batches up for success LATER...

Having said all that... for YOUR batch you are talking about NOW.... Yes.. I would spread thin and wait.

🤓
 
HorseloverFat said:
But I’ve been known to take that “custard consistency” (I know what you are talking about) throw it in a soup pot... and cook it at 145-175F (BELOW 100C)... every “lil bit”.. water will have risen to the top.. carefully dump off, until dumping creates “waste”.. then let her cruise, same temps... you end up with dried “cakes”.. you can then RE-hydrate to your liking.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I was wondering whether I would be able to heat it up a bit to help drive off some more water, but I didn't know if that would cause some unwanted side effects.
 
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