help with Scotts development concepts (pics)

[The Warm Canuck]

I've got a few Scotts pines in early development and am a bit confused on the concepts involved in developing them.

Firstly, This tree for instance is planted in colander in a grow box. I have been told to leave it to grow to encourage as much back budding as possible but how much back budding is enough? I'd like to wire this tree to get some movement in it before it gets any thicker but I don't know how I'll be able to without disturbing the new small buds at the bottom of the trunk. Ideally, I'd prefer to wire the tree in the fall however, would it hurt to do it now?

Secondly, why do we pluck needles? and when does this technique used in the development process? What is the purpose of leaving needles on or removing them?

If someone could give me a development plan for a tree like this, it would be great.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

That's a whole lot of branches!
So what's your aim here? Do you want to make a small or large tree? Or maybe, something else?
Depending on this, you can decide what your focus will be.
Whatever your choice will be, it never hurts to reduce all branch originating points to three or two. A left-right or front-back pattern, or even better: alternating between those. That's a good start.

I wouldn't wire trunks now, because that bark will peel right off.
Needle plucking is a refinement technique except when youre growing a sacrifice branch. Then it's better to keep a large part bare, that way it will focus on top growth, and thicken the trunk.

Those guys from Telperion Farms made good sense in one bonsai mirai podcast: they pluck needles to get pines to grow more buds and respond with more foliage to counteract the loss. That's a deciduous response, but it works! Shoot cut a scots pine too soon (june) and it'll produce a second flush in july. That's a once per two/three year technique because they aren't built to do that on the long run.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

So what's your aim here? Do you want to make a small or large tree? Or maybe, something else?

I'd like to practice making informal uprights around 16-20" in height.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Alright. Well, I guess from that cluster down low you can select the first three, maybe four or five branches.
Remove the rest.
Wire up a new apex from the bunch down low and keep the current top as a sacrifice trunk. Remove all of its needles except for this years growth. Most of it is already gone.

You can wire bends in the trunk in middle fall. It will probably produce some buds at the beginning of fall because you reduced the foliar mass somewhat.

Keep in mind that it's just one approach. I prefer building a tree from a smaller one that has to grow upwards, compared to "hoping that it buds somewhere". I find scots pine easier to manage when growing out than they are to manage scaling down.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Alright. Well, I guess from that cluster down low you can select the first three, maybe four or five branches.
Remove the rest.
Wire up a new apex from the bunch down low and keep the current top as a sacrifice trunk. Remove all of its needles except for this years growth. Most of it is already gone.

So I would probably select the highest strongest branch, of the lower branch cluster, as my new apex, right? The branches are still tiny, so im not sure that a new apex would take to wiring, can that wait until fall too?

When you say select the first three, four or five branches, do you mean from the bottom of the tree?

And when removing needles on the sacrifice branch, how do I know whats this years growth vs last years?

Sorry, for all the questions, it's just hard to learn over the net...lol

 

[Shogun610]

Branch selection , und Add ze wire , und zen you put ze bend in down low to get ze how do you say movement , tighter bends dictate how large the tree will grow as far as your desired trunk diameter. I would wait till closer toward end of growing szn

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

No worries. I would indeed select the highest branch on the highest part at the bottom cluster of branches. It doesn't have to be strong, it will be eventually.

Starting from the bottom, I'd pick a stong branch to be your primary, then one above it as your secondary, and move up like that until you reach your new apex. Make sure there is room in between them. It might just be so that you're left with just three branches, but that's alright. They're all pretty low.

I would wait with wiring anything until fall. But proper branch selection you reduce the size of wounds and whorl formation/inverse taper.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This one started like yours 3 years ago.
Still in the process of branch selection and working it inwards but the bottom trunk is to scale.
That first branch above the cut on the right hand side will be the new apex in a couple years.
I overwater a lot, so my new growth is lighter than last years.

However, dont worry about your sacrifice trunk just yet. Let's take things slow. Forget about the needle plucking for now. It can wait.

 

[Paradox]

Nice start on these

We also thin needles to get light into the interior of trees to encourage back budding.

I agree with getting some wiring on them and put some movement in those trunks in the fall as stated.
Picking some branches, new apex from those and cutting others off is also a good move.
Id keep the main trunk for now as a sacrifice trunk with the goal of growing a bigger trunk

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Thanks guys? What about root work? Nothing has been done in regards to roots on these guys

View attachment 447891
This one started like yours 3 years ago.
Still in the process of branch selection and working it inwards but the bottom trunk is to scale.
That first branch above the cut on the right hand side will be the new apex in a couple years.
I overwater a lot, so my new growth is lighter than last years.

However, dont worry about your sacrifice trunk just yet. Let's take things slow. Forget about the needle plucking for now. It can wait.

Is your first branch the one you have your hand on? Is it not a little high for a first? and where you using the trunk as a sacrifice? and if so, why did you cut it at this point? I've heard you leave the sacrifice until the trunk reaches the desired girth.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

We also thin needles to get light into the interior of trees to encourage back budding.

What is the other reason to remove last years needle?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Thanks guys? What about root work? Nothing has been done in regards to roots on these guys

Is your first branch the one you have your hand on? Is it not a little high for a first? and where you using the trunk as a sacrifice? and if so, why did you cut it at this point? I've heard you leave the sacrifice until the trunk reaches the desired girth.

I'm against root work in summer because I never managed to keep them alive after that.
Why risk it if they grow just one flush per year? Scots pines can be pretty vigorous and the rootwork isn't needed immediately. On some store bought stuff I just whip on a ziptie on the roots I want to kill and put it back in the pot. Eventually the zip tie will constrict it and it'll produce new roots above that point.

My example is a tree that didn't produce anymore new foliage down low so I went with the first branch as my new apex. The trunk is relatively thick for the size, and it will continue to grow as the new branch that turned into the entire tree, will ramify. I could've let it go bigger, but I want the head space. Also the cut would be considerably larger and harder to hide. Now there's a new sacrifice trunk in the making, so eventually it'll continue to thicken up.

My first branch will probably be the one below the one I'm touching. But the one I was touching is a branch I kept for security sake. If the branch below dies (it was weak last year), I have one to fall back to. They will of course be bent down eventually, so it'll end up at the same height as the third winding of wire on the trunk. Maybe an angle change too, and a change of the front. But that's all in the future. I got this one from the woods and sometimes you have to work with what you got.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I'm against root work in summer because I never managed to keep them alive after that.
Why risk it if they grow just one flush per year? Scots pines can be pretty vigorous and the rootwork isn't needed immediately. On some store bought stuff I just whip on a ziptie on the roots I want to kill and put it back in the pot. Eventually the zip tie will constrict it and it'll produce new roots above that point.

My example is a tree that didn't produce anymore new foliage down low so I went with the first branch as my new apex. The trunk is relatively thick for the size, and it will continue to grow as the new branch that turned into the entire tree, will ramify. I could've let it go bigger, but I want the head space. Also the cut would be considerably larger and harder to hide. Now there's a new sacrifice trunk in the making, so eventually it'll continue to thicken up.

My first branch will probably be the one below the one I'm touching. But the one I was touching is a branch I kept for security sake. If the branch below dies (it was weak last year), I have one to fall back to. They will of course be bent down eventually, so it'll end up at the same height as the third winding of wire on the trunk. Maybe an angle change too, and a change of the front. But that's all in the future. I got this one from the woods and sometimes you have to work with what you got.

Thank you for all the info.

I'll have to try the zip tie thing. I bought 6 scotts pines from Lowes this spring and all the roots are bunched. It looks like they leave them in a small pot way too long.

 

[ChadA2]

What do you think about planting it in the ground to help it thicken up a little more before transferring over to a pot?

 

[The Warm Canuck]

They are in the ground. Well, in a raised bed. I can't believe they're vigour. They're growing like crazy. I think fertilising at full strength once a week is definitely helping.