Help with Field Grown Trident

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

This is a Trident growing in my grow box. I’d like to develop this into a shohin. The base is probably about two inches. The tree is about 7 ft tall at the moment.



This spring, I was thinking of making a couple of cuts and moving to a grow box.


With a goal for something like this...


Am I on the right track? I could leave it in the grow box, but I’m pretty happy with the size of the trunk, so I figure it might be time for the next step in its development. Any suggestions or thoughts? Happy New Year Bnuts!

 

[sorce]

What's going on with that high root?

Seems undercut below it....which would make removal a poop.

What about leaving this foliage and burying it a bit lower to encourage that plane of nebari?

With a slight angle change?

With the potential in this....
I would be concerned with a great spread.

Seems still easily fixable...
Potted up and slow growing, waiting to fix it later, sounds like failed grafts and something you will never love love.

Too much potential to skip details IMO.

pretty happy

the gun jumping tell.
"Pretty happy." 70%

Plus....you see that next high branch on the right trunk?
I would want to get a branch growing about that big....at the chop site, to cut back to, before chopping it.

That way your transition position is guaranteed.
Healing will be faster.
Easier to identify collars to cut back to.

Seems when you cut back to nothing....
You get shrinkage in the stump...
Which leaves you whittling to a transition of taper determined by the tree...
Which can leave it too thin and ugly, with DW you may not ever get to heal.

Where if you have a branch and foliage to chop too....
You get bulging...healing....allowing you to determine the taper of the transition.

This is the same as...."you can't put it back on after you cut it...."

Except with tissues not as evident as a branch.

But once you allow that stump to die back without a branch stopper....your total control is gone.

A safety cut to promote a branch?
A graft?

Sick Piece!

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

From my untrained eye and beginner status, I would say there's a nice tree in here that you'll be able to find with the help of the BN experts.

Sorce, do you mean that GDY needs to graft a branch low down, in the area you have suggested, and get this to develop before cutting this tree down? If not a graft, what are his options? How does this work on a tree that is yet to have its first cut? And is just a single trunk? I have a couple of trees that I was going to chop this spring ..... now I'm not sure! (Hope you don't mind me asking a question on your thead GDY?!)

 

[twisted trees]

I would air layer the tops instead of just pruning the tops. It looks like you will need to graft roots onto the base.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Dig around the soil until you find the best front. I would remove the high root, and if you’re working to make it a shohin, you’ll want to make the first cut lower. Make the cuts when the leaves are growing in the late spring. Then, be sure to let the chops heal before making the next chop.

A few threads worth reading about growing and chopping tridents:
Shohin trident ? For Smoke
2010 BonsaiNut Trident Project
The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project
The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project
The 2010 BonsaiNut Maple Project

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Dig around the soil until you find the best front. I would remove the high root, and if you’re working to make it a shohin, you’ll want to make the first cut lower. Make the cuts when the leaves are growing in the late spring. Then, be sure to let the chops heal before making the next chop.
View attachment 172727
A few threads worth reading about growing and chopping tridents:
Shohin trident ? For Smoke
2010 BonsaiNut Trident Project
The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project
The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project
The 2010 BonsaiNut Maple Project

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Brian, are you suggesting making these two chops at different times, or could they be done at the same time? Would you keep it in the ground or take it to grow box after the cuts? Thanks!

 

[sorce]

what are his options?

All those nodes look ripe to pop...
So hopefully he shouldn't have to graft.

I would cut the big trunk off now.
And the small one down to that first branch we can see.
If that action doesn't get a branch to pop there(it will) how you ever gonna chase back branches right?

My thing is the time.

Say you take this year to get the bud popped, and a year to grow it to what I call "safe to cut to"...
By mid 2019 you can make that second cut to the small branch. With your 3rd section already 1.5 to 2 seasons thick.

Scenario 2. Chop it all now.
And by mid 2019. That new bud and branch you get will be the same 1.5 to 2 seasons thick.

Same.
Except for the differences!

So my thoughts are balancing those differences.

Scenario 1, its not the only branch left, so it may grow slower.
Slow growth is better IMO. Fast growth could easily lead to too thick too fast.
+1

Scenario 2, its the only branch (and its not even a branch yet) left...
If a sparrow sits on it in spring, or if you get one Japanese Beetle, or 6 mites, or one caterpillar, or a bounced ball.....
You stand the chance of being completely screwed.
-5

Hell...look back at the past too..
We can see on this tree how beautiful the first transition already is.
And it was grown that way as in scenario 1.

Why try to rush the next section to save time you are not even saving?

Ok you save time.....but for a shittier tree.
An Americanized tree.

Hell....why are we pining to pine this maple anyway?

To Japanize it?

New Rule......

No Grey to Green transitions.
Its ugly, and senseless.
And should only occur hidden in new apexi.

Its safer to graft then to count on a bud one lil mistep could ruin.

Eff it! Graft!

Not!

Go Slower!

Heinz Ketchup.

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Brian, are you suggesting making these two chops at different times, or could they be done at the same time? Would you keep it in the ground or take it to grow box after the cuts? Thanks!

I would make both of those chops at the same time, when the tree is actively growing. If you can keep it in the ground where you live, it will accelerate your timeline by double. Trees in the ground simply grow faster. Fast growth is good for this phase, as long as you don't let the roots get too far from the trunk.

Check out Scott’s thread and see how he got the roots right first, then moved on to developing the trunk:
Field-grown trident

 

[River's Edge]

What's going on with that high root?

Seems undercut below it....which would make removal a poop.

What about leaving this foliage and burying it a bit lower to encourage that plane of nebari?

With a slight angle change?View attachment 172723

With the potential in this....
I would be concerned with a great spread.

Seems still easily fixable...
Potted up and slow growing, waiting to fix it later, sounds like failed grafts and something you will never love love.

Too much potential to skip details IMO.



the gun jumping tell.
"Pretty happy." 70%

Plus....you see that next high branch on the right trunk?
I would want to get a branch growing about that big....at the chop site, to cut back to, before chopping it.

That way your transition position is guaranteed.
Healing will be faster.
Easier to identify collars to cut back to.

Seems when you cut back to nothing....
You get shrinkage in the stump...
Which leaves you whittling to a transition of taper determined by the tree...
Which can leave it too thin and ugly, with DW you may not ever get to heal.

Where if you have a branch and foliage to chop too....
You get bulging...healing....allowing you to determine the taper of the transition.

This is the same as...."you can't put it back on after you cut it...."

Except with tissues not as evident as a branch.

But once you allow that stump to die back without a branch stopper....your total control is gone.

A safety cut to promote a branch?
A graft?

Sick Piece!

Sorce

Amen! All of the above for all of the above reasons.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Ok, here's the plan: Make the cuts, pull it, work the roots a bit and place back in the ground, screwed to a board. All in spring, of course. Let it grow and keep ya'll posted on its progress.

Appreciate your thoughts @sorce & @Brian Van Fleet

@AndyJ - No problem, ask away

@twisted trees Your comment about an air layer are good and I go back and forth about it. I have too many trees. My goal is to reduce and have better material. It seems the air layers would produce new trees, but nothing extraordinary.