Help with apex shortening/design

[Big Country Bonsai]

I’m a new practitioner to the wonderful art of bonsai so I have so much to learn and am willing to learn wherever I can! Anyways I have this really cool oak tree (Quercus Buckley’s) that was collected earlier this year and it’s done generally good (except for the leaf burn) for it’s first year in a pot so I decided to pull a couple of branches around using some guy wires. Pretty happy with how it’s turning out although I can’t take much credit because it had all of the bones there when I pulled it out of the ground.
I think the apex could benefit from a shortening/ wiring but I’m hesitant to really do anything dramatic due to my inexperience. And advice is appreciated and welcome. Below is a pic before and after guy wires were placed.

 

[Adair M]

No wiring needed, but pruning definitely is!

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

When do you recommend pruning deciduous trees? I have heard fall is the time from some and that it isn’t from others such as Ryan Niel. I’m assuming your recommendation is to create a more ideal silhouette and increase ramification?
Thanks for the response @Adair M

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree with Adair, remove your guy wires.

Begin by shortening the outer 20% of the tree. Just bring in the outer most 1/5th, then step back and look at it again.

Is there a local club in Abilene?, There are very active clubs in San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas.

This tree is exceptionally good, for a collected oak . A beautiful, natural looking informal oak style. Most all of your main branches are exactly where they should be. It would be a shame to screw this one up by styling a tree that don't need no work done.

I suggest getting to know who is near you that does oak bonsai. You need guidance in what to do when in the local Abilene climate. I can only talk about Chicago and Milwaukee climates.

So I would first remove the guy wires. Then hit a few meetings in the 3 cities I mentioned. Do no pruning until you find a local enough mentor that you can at least look at their oaks and see what they do when. It is okay to let your tree grow a year or two while you are gathering information.

Or bring the tree with you to a meeting or two.

But first I would find the "oak expert" nearest you, and check out their trees to make sure they are the expert you need. Every club has "that guy" that will tell a newbie all kinds of crap, then you realize nobody in the club who has experience asks "that guy" what they think. And then you notice who the more experienced are going to in the club for advice - that is the person you want. Not the "that guy" that tries to impress you the first 10 minutes you are in the room.

So from me, it is high praise indeed, to say - don't do anything to your tree until you have help lined up. And if you find another one just like that one, I would happily buy it from you. LOL. You have a good eye, when you collected that tree, you collected a damn nice tree.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'd go here, this fall. The lowest branch on the left needs to be lower to approximately 10° below horizontal, in stages. Otherwise just grow it on. Someday when the lower branches are thick enough to suit you, shorten them in stages back to slightly wider than the crown which should be moderately rounded. Nice tree!

 

[sorce]

I would like to hear what @Zach Smith has to say about working this tree ....

Since I don't know Oak except the one I watched die inside in my beginning.

If it were mine...I would wait till next summer to even pick it up and bring it in the house.

Looks like there are 2 healthy roots growing and a bunch dying. Not enough to support work of any kind.

I wouldn't remove the guy wires or anything.

It's essentially dying IMO.

Turn that around first.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

When do you recommend pruning deciduous trees? I have heard fall is the time from some and that it isn’t from others such as Ryan Niel. I’m assuming your recommendation is to create a more ideal silhouette and increase ramification?
Thanks for the response @Adair M

I’m not so much concerned with the Silohette at this point as I am with developing taper in he branches.

Be aware that developing a good deciduous bonsai takes far longer than developing a conifer bonsai. Everyone wants to start with building ramification. That should the very LAST phase! It’s the easiest.

Building primary and secondary branch structure, with taper takes time and patience. The way to get taper is to let it grow, then cut it back. Let grow, cut back.

I don’t know how Ryan suggests growing deciduous trees. But the guys in Japan do cut back in fall after the leaves have turned. Cut back to a bud that’s pointing in the direction you want the branch to grow in the future.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

I would like to hear what @Zach Smith has to say about working this tree ....

Since I don't know Oak except the one I watched die inside in my beginning.

If it were mine...I would wait till next summer to even pick it up and bring it in the house.

Looks like there are 2 healthy roots growing and a bunch dying. Not enough to support work of any kind.

I wouldn't remove the guy wires or anything.

It's essentially dying IMO.

Turn that around first.

Sorce

I’m confused. Are you saying the tree you have is dying or mine is? And not sure where the reference to roots is coming from. And this was on the back patio not inside

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

I’m not so much concerned with the Silohette at this point as I am with developing taper in he branches.

Be aware that developing a good deciduous bonsai takes far longer than developing a conifer bonsai. Everyone wants to start with building ramification. That should the very LAST phase! It’s the easiest.

Building primary and secondary branch structure, with taper takes time and patience. The way to get taper is to let it grow, then cut it back. Let grow, cut back.

I don’t know how Ryan suggests growing deciduous trees. But the guys in Japan do cut back in fall after the leaves have turned. Cut back to a bud that’s pointing in the direction you want the branch to grow in the future.

Would you also recommend removing the guy wires I have placed? I was looking to convey more age of weighed down branches as would appear on a large oak. I’m only 27 so I’m in this for the long haul hopefully and in no rush to make this tree look amazing in a year or two. I’ll probably let it recover another year before any serious pruning is done. So far I’ve only removed dead branches and branches that are clearly in the wrong position.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

I agree with Adair, remove your guy wires.

Begin by shortening the outer 20% of the tree. Just bring in the outer most 1/5th, then step back and look at it again.

Is there a local club in Abilene?, There are very active clubs in San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas.

This tree is exceptionally good, for a collected oak . A beautiful, natural looking informal oak style. Most all of your main branches are exactly where they should be. It would be a shame to screw this one up by styling a tree that don't need no work done.

I suggest getting to know who is near you that does oak bonsai. You need guidance in what to do when in the local Abilene climate. I can only talk about Chicago and Milwaukee climates.

So I would first remove the guy wires. Then hit a few meetings in the 3 cities I mentioned. Do no pruning until you find a local enough mentor that you can at least look at their oaks and see what they do when. It is okay to let your tree grow a year or two while you are gathering information.

Or bring the tree with you to a meeting or two.

But first I would find the "oak expert" nearest you, and check out their trees to make sure they are the expert you need. Every club has "that guy" that will tell a newbie all kinds of crap, then you realize nobody in the club who has experience asks "that guy" what they think. And then you notice who the more experienced are going to in the club for advice - that is the person you want. Not the "that guy" that tries to impress you the first 10 minutes you are in the room.

So from me, it is high praise indeed, to say - don't do anything to your tree until you have help lined up. And if you find another one just like that one, I would happily buy it from you. LOL. You have a good eye, when you collected that tree, you collected a damn nice tree.

I wish there was a club here in Abilene. Maybe when I get more established in my career and have more space I’ll try to start a club. Dallas is about 3 hours away so it’s just a little infeasible at this point and Austin is even further. I’ll take you advice and move slow with the tree and hopefully be able to get some help from an experienced bonsai hobbyist.

 

[River's Edge]

I’m a new practitioner to the wonderful art of bonsai so I have so much to learn and am willing to learn wherever I can! Anyways I have this really cool oak tree (Quercus Buckley’s) that was collected earlier this year and it’s done generally good (except for the leaf burn) for it’s first year in a pot so I decided to pull a couple of branches around using some guy wires. Pretty happy with how it’s turning out although I can’t take much credit because it had all of the bones there when I pulled it out of the ground.
I think the apex could benefit from a shortening/ wiring but I’m hesitant to really do anything dramatic due to my inexperience. And advice is appreciated and welcome. Below is a pic before and after guy wires were placed. View attachment 266074View attachment 266075

The tree has nice form, but appears to be in very weak condition. I would get advice and help on bringing it back to health before working the tree! In the meantime remove the guy wires. Collected trees benefit from allowing them two or three years to gain vigor and extra health before working. If it was collected earlier this year as you stated then I would probably plan on work a year from now if the tree is very healthy showing lots of new growth all over by that time!

 

[sorce]

I’m confused. Are you saying the tree you have is dying or mine is? And not sure where the reference to roots is coming from. And this was on the back patio not inside

I can see how that was confusing. But if you read it again without confusion it might not be!

One thought.

would like to hear what @Zach Smith has to say about working this tree ....

Since I don't know Oak except the one I watched die inside in my beginning.

Another seperate unrelated.

If it were mine...I would wait till next summer to even pick it up and bring it in the house.

because you brought it in for photos. Moving and jostling is no good.

Because...

Looks like there are 2 healthy roots growing and a bunch dying. Not enough to support work of any kind.

don't underestimate the "mirror" thing. Top mirrors bottom pretty well. I know this because I pull saplings out of the ground regularly and often to study this. This top is saying the bottoms haulted, maybe at colander edge. And 2 roots are going strong, which will lead to an imbalance. Thats why the "leaf burn".

This is my first study of oak and a colander, it is a colander right?
But what we know about oaks taproots and roots and habits, says maybe colanders aren't the best for oaks.
It explains what is going on quite well, all the information we have about oak.

Sorce

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

The tree has nice form, but appears to be in very weak condition. I would get advice and help on bringing it back to health before working the tree! In the meantime remove the guy wires. Collected trees benefit from allowing them two or three years to gain vigor and extra health before working. If it was collected earlier this year as you stated then I would probably plan on work a year from now if the tree is very healthy showing lots of new growth all over by that time!

From my experience with these oaks in habitat they are very shade intolerant so I think that’s why the leaves are focused and the ends of all of the branches but the tree is actually giving of a small second flush of new leaves. Also the leaves seem to sit flat so you can’t get a good scale of how many there are if your looking straight in on the tree. Here are a couple of pics of some of the new leaves. I do agree that the tree will have more leaves that are pretty and green without any kind of burn once ideal health is established but I’m optimistic that the tree is on the incline ( maybe I’m wrong)

 

[River's Edge]

From my experience with these oaks in habitat they are very shade intolerant so I think that’s why the leaves are focused and the ends of all of the branches but the tree is actually giving of a small second flush of new leaves. Also the leaves seem to sit flat so you can’t get a good scale of how many there are if your looking straight in on the tree. Here are a couple of pics of some of the new leaves. I do agree that the tree will have more leaves that are pretty and green without any kind of burn once ideal health is established but I’m optimistic that the tree is on the incline ( maybe I’m wrong)

On closer examination, with the further pictures i feel strongly that several roots are still compromised and the majority of new growth is the results of a few stronger roots. I still recommend waiting and strengthening the tree. However, you are blessed to live in a free world so it is still your call

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

I can see how that was confusing. But if you read it again without confusion it might not be!

One thought.


Another seperate unrelated.
because you brought it in for photos. Moving and jostling is no good.

Because...
don't underestimate the "mirror" thing. Top mirrors bottom pretty well. I know this because I pull saplings out of the ground regularly and often to study this. This top is saying the bottoms haulted, maybe at colander edge. And 2 roots are going strong, which will lead to an imbalance. Thats why the "leaf burn".

This is my first study of oak and a colander, it is a colander right?
But what we know about oaks taproots and roots and habits, says maybe colanders aren't the best for oaks.
It explains what is going on quite well, all the information we have about oak.

Sorce

Got you! It is a colander but luckily this was sitting on a large bedrock when collected so it had lots of feeders. As I said I’m new so could be doing everything wrong. I do think this really hot summer halted some healing but it’s sending out a small second flush which gives me hope that it’s recovering. Here’s a pic of roots at collection and one when it began leading out this spring. (Beautiful spring color and shape)

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

On closer examination, with the further pictures i feel strongly that several roots are still compromised and the majority of new growth is the results of a few stronger roots. I still recommend waiting and strengthening the tree. However, you are blessed to live in a free world so it is still your call

I’ll be patient and follow you’re advice. I welcome any advice for aftercare as I understand it’s still recovering. Maybe I’m trying to be ignorantly optimistic

 

[sorce]

Be optimistic!

Just remember optimism has nothing to do with time! It won't get stale, and it doesn't mind hanging out for a few years!

Seeing the roots, I am afraid my optimism of "hitting the colander edge" may have really been those old leaves dying from using up stored energy, and you are correct about 2 roots, which may be the only ones that grew, supporting those 2 branches.

This is not great, but that sure doesn't mean we give up!

Just stop moving it around!



Sorce

 

[Zach Smith]

Considering it's in year one out of the ground, don't get too eager to hack and slash even though as a new bonsai enthusiast you just can't wait to do so! Leave the tree alone at least through next spring, so it can continue to build strength. If you can, at that point, verify strong root growth then you can hard-prune back to a reasonable silhouette. The main problem right now is it's just "rangy," meaning it's overgrown, and it needs to be brought back in to make the proportions better suited to the trunk thickness. Nice oak, for sure.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Considering it's in year one out of the ground, don't get too eager to hack and slash even though as a new bonsai enthusiast you just can't wait to do so! Leave the tree alone at least through next spring, so it can continue to build strength. If you can, at that point, verify strong root growth then you can hard-prune back to a reasonable silhouette. The main problem right now is it's just "rangy," meaning it's overgrown, and it needs to be brought back in to make the proportions better suited to the trunk thickness. Nice oak, for sure.

Are you recommending checking root growth spring 2020 or 2021? And would I do a complete report to verify growth? Do you have any experience with this kind of red oak? Just curious of what to expect in terms of vigor/training
Thanks so much and love watching for updates on your blog!

 

[Zach Smith]

Are you recommending checking root growth spring 2020 or 2021? And would I do a complete report to verify growth? Do you have any experience with this kind of red oak? Just curious of what to expect in terms of vigor/training
Thanks so much and love watching for updates on your blog!

2020. Oaks root well. Look for roots at the drain holes, that's the first sign. A little careful digging also tells. I do have experience with red oak, it takes them 2 years to root solidly.
.