Help save Chief Joseph Lodgepole

MaxChavez

Yamadori
Messages
73
Reaction score
81
Location
Seattle, WA
USDA Zone
8b
Hello,
I'm trying to revive this pine after our elderly neighbors threw their hands up. It seems like they've just done way too much water in the winter, not enough in the summer for a few years.
Anyways, Pinus Contorta Latifolia 'chief Joseph'
They yellow color is normal, but should probably not be this yellow til late fall. And it's obviously has other issues.

Anyways, first question:
Try a late summer/early fall repot, so it doesn't deteriorate more over winter? In case there is significant root rot.
Or, try to nurse it along (Greenhouse rain protection) over winter and just try and keep it on the dry side?

I also have a pretty wide range of ferts available that I'll introduce in a few weeks/month.

Any advice appreciated!1000005599.jpg1000005600.jpg
 
No signs of new growth this year and I doubt those yellow needles are functioning. I wouldn't attempt to repot as you will only kill the tree faster. I believe the tree is dead but just be careful with watering and only water when it needs it if you are still attempting to revive the tree.
 
No signs of new growth this year and I doubt those yellow needles are functioning. I wouldn't attempt to repot as you will only kill the tree faster. I believe the tree is dead but just be careful with watering and only water when it needs it if you are still attempting to revive the tree.
There is new growth at all the tips. Though the needles are dwarfed, they are alive. The gold color is a characteristic of the varietal.
 
There is new growth at all the tips. Though the needles are dwarfed, they are alive. The gold color is a characteristic of the varietal.
Yellow gold is the normal color for this species, although mostly a winter coloration…usually a green color in summer. This tree looks void of development along those bare branches though. Possible buds….maybe. I can’t see them. How about some closeup photos of those buds on the tips….especially tip buds closer to the trunk on newly developing branches?

It is an interesting unconventional color really. Strikingly cool if you can power up some buds to bring the tree down and in tighter.
 
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Nurture some of the budding so it looks less like now and develops new branching closer to the trunk to start a new image with less pom-pom ends. Example pruning from buds/growth I think I see…..the are probably more on other branches. I’d be concentrating on the lower third of the tree. I’d bring the whole tree in tighter to assemble new healthy growth conditions.
IMG_7389.jpeg
 
Hello,
I'm trying to revive this pine after our elderly neighbors threw their hands up. It seems like they've just done way too much water in the winter, not enough in the summer for a few years.
Anyways, Pinus Contorta Latifolia 'chief Joseph'
They yellow color is normal, but should probably not be this yellow til late fall. And it's obviously has other issues.

Anyways, first question:
Try a late summer/early fall repot, so it doesn't deteriorate more over winter? In case there is significant root rot.
Or, try to nurse it along (Greenhouse rain protection) over winter and just try and keep it on the dry side?

I also have a pretty wide range of ferts available that I'll introduce in a few weeks/month.

Any advice appreciated!View attachment 559901View attachment 559902

I understand your concern. The background of the pictures you posted is disturbing the content of the matter a bit
 
I think you’ll want to keep the soil on the moist side…not soggy….just moist. If dry the roots will cease development growth for those tip buds. You still have summer months ahead. I doubt there is root rot. I just think the tree has been neglected and not been taken care of for a while. It needs to be put in a situation to grow.
 
I think you’ll want to keep the soil on the moist side…not soggy….just moist. If dry the roots will cease development growth for those tip buds. You still have summer months ahead. I doubt there is root rot. I just think the tree has been neglected and not been taken care of for a while. It needs to be put in a situation to grow.
Thanks for your thoughts. My thought was to leave all the viable growth for now to drive health for the next season and hopefully get more buds to develop. Are you suggesting cutting back a bit soon? Fall pruning time?
Any thoughts on fertilizing strategy?
 
I would go along with your thought-out plan. Get the tree back into a healthy state the rest of this season and perhaps the next season too. I think a light fertilizer would be helpful…light dose. I think the delicate balance is keeping the buds healthy without forcing them to open this late in the season.

I encourage you to research this specific tree species and grab ahold of some facts about the return to health. If there are good buds, you can work to get them developed….if the tree gains overall health. Right now the tree looks like it’s heading into an early dormancy. I'm guessing this because of the winter coloration. I don’t think you can fool the tree and reverse that heading. I think this season you’ll just have a longer dormancy period. I could be wrong though.

If I recall correctly the Seattle area can be wet in the what is called winter. I think you’ll need to assess the tree health going into winter. You have a few good weather months ahead of you. It’s an outdoor tree, but there are ways to shield the soil top from excessive rains while still leaving the tree outdoors. Once, a long time ago, I used bubble wrap to cover a container top…held on by a couple of bungee cords. It worked. But I also made sure the soil did not dry out. The tree is in a wooden container right now and that will help insulate the roots from excessive cold. But if it snowed I let the container and tree get covered with nature's natural insulation….snow.

I’ve taken chances to learn more about a tree's response. You know the very top side branches will not likely be used for the final tree anyway. Prune a couple of them to a better bud closer to the trunk and observe the tree response. See what happens to the buds.

I believe there are a few really experienced pine people here that can relate late season pruning.
 
It just thinks the days are getting shorter. Maybe it has a reason to think that.
 
My experience with lodgepole pine, shore pine, and variegated foliage on pines generally:

- I have wild-collected lodgepole and shore pines and barerooted them in all 4 seasons successfully (edit: but I do not do so between budbreak and hardening)
- I have successfully cloned wild-collected lodgepole pine through (2 year) air layering
- I have had success bending lodgepole and shore pines into very tight shapes
- I grow three variegated non-lodgepole pines and have improved my results with them over the last few years (1 variegated mugo, 2 variegated JBP) and recognize the Chief Joseph cultivar. I don't own a CJ lodgepole, but I see them often at WA/OR nurseries often and have inspected them up close. IMO their variegation is similar to that of the other variegated pines that I grow except it is more "total" in its expression at peak.
- I have studied and worked with lodgepole and shore pines at Crataegus and Rakuyo gardens over several years
- I've had improving success with turning leggy hard-to-use lodgepole branches into useful/usable branches through the process of seasonally iterative wiring, strategic thinning, and horticulture improvement
- I have nursed back to full health & vigor a few PNW nursery lodgepoles which were greatly overpotted in organic soil by retail nurseries (a potting configuration that your CJ lodgepole has which I believe sets the buyer up for failure unless they intend to ground-grow the tree as a landscape tree). Many of these nursery lodgepoles are B&B'd (ball-and-burlapped), then wrapped in nursery/potting soil, which can complicate things.

If the tree is expanding the size of next year's buds in late July and in person you are convinced that the variegated foliage looks reasonably plump and sharp-tipped and non-flimsy (that last one is key), then the tree is functioning. If that was the case and you gave me this tree to keep for a couple years to flip into a bushier tree my plan would be:
  1. I'd first do the Neil/Kimura troubled-pine trick and tip the pot on an angle to get it to move moisture out of the pot faster. The angle of tipping I would choose is the one that gave me the largest vertical distance between the lowest part of the pot touching the ground and the highest point of the pot rim above, i.e. the one that rotates the soil mass to have the tallest vertical gravity column possible, even if that gravity column is narrow. I'd perforate the wooden pot for air flow with many drilled holes on the sides and bottom to increase the rate of drying and air flow any way I can (swiss-cheesing isn't pretty but it helps). My singular mission would be to get the soil to go paper-dry down to like 3 inches deep. At time of drying, I'd untip the pot so that it's flat on the ground again, water to saturation, then bob/move the pot in whatever way I could to motivate excess water drippage out. Then I'd re-tip it. That would be my watering ritual until I had done the first big repot and soil volume reduction.
  2. I'd keep the tree in direct sun but not in a greenhouse. If I felt the variegated needles were getting roasted I'd consider having it in a spot that gets sun-baked until very early afternoon and then drops into shade for the rest of the day, but if the needles weren't getting roasted (in my experience some variegated pine foliage overheats and roasts more easily -- variegated JBP -- while some is completely impervious to overheating -- mugo), then I'd maximize sun
  3. I wouldn't fertilize much prior to the big repot but if I did it would be very mild and probably with just fish emulsion.
  4. I wouldn't repot in the year of this post (2024) and would delay that repot till spring 2025
The next part is something where I would feel brave doing it myself but I feel less confident in just willy-nilly telling people to do it this way, but I'd personally do it this way because I see it as "either do it this way and get the tree back on track quickly OR waste a lot of time on material I should have just passed on to begin with". So with that disclaimer:

At repot time, which I'd do in late winter / early spring, I would reduce the root system down significantly, possibly even down to near grapefruit size, possibly nearly bare rooting the tree. I'd clean away as much organic soil as I could get away with and put the tree in a non-shallow mesh box that wasn't too much bigger than the resulting root volume. The potting media would be coarse-leaning pumice. I'd treat the tree similar to step 1 above except without the pot tipping, i.e. my mission is to see it dry out before I water again and to keep it in full sun. No pruning in 2025. If it was me, I wouldn't prune it for ages really, because I'd first wait till it was healthy enough to wire the branch tips down below the interior shoots/buds and start strengthening the interior. This tree is very sparse compared to what a lodgepole can ultimately hope for in coarse pumice, full sun, infrequent watering, wiring down shoots, and eventually a return to fertilization. If the tree is functioning (week-by-week expansion of buds, take measurements/pictures to gain confidence), then I think you can get there.

Good luck! Lodgepoles are super freakin' tough freaks of nature so there is always a way. They thrive in coarse pumice/lava -- go hike on the eastern slopes of the cascades or in the lava beds and you'll see.
 
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My experience with lodgepole pine, shore pine, and variegated foliage on pines generally:

- I have wild-collected lodgepole and shore pines and barerooted them in all 4 seasons successfully (edit: but I do not do so between budbreak and hardening)
- I have successfully cloned wild-collected lodgepole pine through (2 year) air layering
- I have had success bending lodgepole and shore pines into very tight shapes
- I grow three variegated non-lodgepole pines and have improved my results with them over the last few years (1 variegated mugo, 2 variegated JBP) and recognize the Chief Joseph cultivar. I don't own a CJ lodgepole, but I see them often at WA/OR nurseries often and have inspected them up close. IMO their variegation is similar to that of the other variegated pines that I grow except it is more "total" in its expression at peak.
- I have studied and worked with lodgepole and shore pines at Crataegus and Rakuyo gardens over several years
- I've had improving success with turning leggy hard-to-use lodgepole branches into useful/usable branches through the process of seasonally iterative wiring, strategic thinning, and horticulture improvement
- I have nursed back to full health & vigor a few PNW nursery lodgepoles which were greatly overpotted in organic soil by retail nurseries (a potting configuration that your CJ lodgepole has which I believe sets the buyer up for failure unless they intend to ground-grow the tree as a landscape tree). Many of these nursery lodgepoles are B&B'd (ball-and-burlapped), then wrapped in nursery/potting soil, which can complicate things.

If the tree is expanding the size of next year's buds in late July and in person you are convinced that the variegated foliage looks reasonably plump and sharp-tipped and non-flimsy (that last one is key), then the tree is functioning. If that was the case and you gave me this tree to keep for a couple years to flip into a bushier tree my plan would be:
  1. I'd first do the Neil/Kimura troubled-pine trick and tip the pot on an angle to get it to move moisture out of the pot faster. The angle of tipping I would choose is the one that gave me the largest vertical distance between the lowest part of the pot touching the ground and the highest point of the pot rim above, i.e. the one that rotates the soil mass to have the tallest vertical gravity column possible, even if that gravity column is narrow. I'd perforate the wooden pot for air flow with many drilled holes on the sides and bottom to increase the rate of drying and air flow any way I can (swiss-cheesing isn't pretty but it helps). My singular mission would be to get the soil to go paper-dry down to like 3 inches deep. At time of drying, I'd untip the pot so that it's flat on the ground again, water to saturation, then bob/move the pot in whatever way I could to motivate excess water drippage out. Then I'd re-tip it. That would be my watering ritual until I had done the first big repot and soil volume reduction.
  2. I'd keep the tree in direct sun but not in a greenhouse. If I felt the variegated needles were getting roasted I'd consider having it in a spot that gets sun-baked until very early afternoon and then drops into shade for the rest of the day, but if the needles weren't getting roasted (in my experience some variegated pine foliage overheats and roasts more easily -- variegated JBP -- while some is completely impervious to overheating -- mugo), then I'd maximize sun
  3. I wouldn't fertilize much prior to the big repot but if I did it would be very mild and probably with just fish emulsion.
  4. I wouldn't repot in the year of this post (2024) and would delay that repot till spring 2025
The next part is something where I would feel brave doing it myself but I feel less confident in just willy-nilly telling people to do it this way, but I'd personally do it this way because I see it as "either do it this way and get the tree back on track quickly OR waste a lot of time on material I should have just passed on to begin with". So with that disclaimer:

At repot time, which I'd do in late winter / early spring, I would reduce the root system down significantly, possibly even down to near grapefruit size, possibly nearly bare rooting the tree. I'd clean away as much organic soil as I could get away with and put the tree in a non-shallow mesh box that wasn't too much bigger than the resulting root volume. The potting media would be coarse-leaning pumice. I'd treat the tree similar to step 1 above except without the pot tipping, i.e. my mission is to see it dry out before I water again and to keep it in full sun. No pruning in 2025. If it was me, I wouldn't prune it for ages really, because I'd first wait till it was healthy enough to wire the branch tips down below the interior shoots/buds and start strengthening the interior. This tree is very sparse compared to what a lodgepole can ultimately hope for in coarse pumice, full sun, infrequent watering, wiring down shoots, and eventually a return to fertilization. If the tree is functioning (week-by-week expansion of buds, take measurements/pictures to gain confidence), then I think you can get there.

Good luck! Lodgepoles are super freakin' tough freaks of nature so there is always a way. They thrive in coarse pumice/lava -- go hike on the eastern slopes of the cascades or in the lava beds and you'll see.
Thanks for all the info. I like the idea of drilling the pot for extra drainage and oxygen. As far as the greenhouse, I generally leave all the sides open and basically just use it for the dryer pines, etc when the daily rains start Oct-feb.
It's definitely a long term project, but I can't resist trying to save a (free) tree and fortunately have the space
Cheers!
 
Thanks for all the info. I like the idea of drilling the pot for extra drainage and oxygen. As far as the greenhouse, I generally leave all the sides open and basically just use it for the dryer pines, etc when the daily rains start Oct-feb.
It's definitely a long term project, but I can't resist trying to save a (free) tree and fortunately have the space
Cheers!
Sounds like an excellent plan of action. Sometime in 2025 repost a new photo so we can see the survivor developing.
 
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