Grafted vs. Non-Grafted

[M. Frary]

I replied to a question regarding grafted rootstock and it got me to thinking. I replied that non-grafted stock is much more desirabl than non-grafted. I posted a pic of one of my hinokis that is grafted onto what is presumably a stronger grower than the hinoki cypress. I brutalized it this year and it is in great shape. I mean I really pushed it. Do you suppose because the root stock is stronger it let's us do more to the scion than one would normally do? Meaning quicker recovery times than normal or was I just lucky. Oh yeah I also repotted and did major root work on another hinoki in the middle of summer and it also didn't miss a beat. Maybe its just these . I don't have any other trees that are grafts to experiment on. Has anyone else out there noticed this ?

Mike Frary

 

[Stan Kengai]

It all depends on the particular species and cultivar. Some are stronger because they are grafted. While other cultivars are grafted because that is the easiest/quickest/most reliable way to propagate them, and will perform well on their own roots.

 

[M. Frary]

What I'm getting at is why not use the parent stock for all work on these weaker trees then layer them as the final step.
Also some trees that don't do well on their own why not layer them directly under the graft union in order to keep the better root stock and be able to hide the graft?

Mike Frary

 

[Mark l. Comstock]

airlayers on hinokis are not a homerun. Some folks have great success others not so good. It would be an awful feeling to work on a tree for years waiting to airlayer and then to have it die. In the nursery industry the reason hinokis are grafted is because immediately after grafting they will put on 2 years of growth in a six month period greatly shortening the time a grower can take it to market. Developing great surface roots also takes a great amount of time. The airlayered roots can be developing during that period of time you are working the top. Hinokis grow on their own roots quite well as my families nursery has propagated over a million hinokis from cuttings since 1927. The only variety hinokis we grafted were the nanas because of the initial growth spurt after grafting would allow us to have a full one gallon nana in 4 years instead of 7years

 

[thumblessprimate1]

What I'm getting at is why not use the parent stock for all work on these weaker trees then layer them as the final step.
Also some trees that don't do well on their own why not layer them directly under the graft union in order to keep the better root stock and be able to hide the graft?

Mike Frary

I've been thinking in a similar way as you for the last year. This is something that I'd like to try on one of my japanese maples.

 

[M. Frary]

airlayers on hinokis are not a homerun. Some folks have great success others not so good. It would be an awful feeling to work on a tree for years waiting to airlayer and then to have it die. In the nursery industry the reason hinokis are grafted is because immediately after grafting they will put on 2 years of growth in a six month period greatly shortening the time a grower can take it to market. Developing great surface roots also takes a great amount of time. The airlayered roots can be developing during that period of time you are working the top. Hinokis grow on their own roots quite well as my families nursery has propagated over a million hinokis from cuttings since 1927.
The only variety hinokis we grafted were the nanas because of the initial growth spurt after grafting would allow us to have a full one gallon nana in 4 years instead of 7years

Is it possible to air or ground layer the root stock that nanas are grafted onto. And is there somewhere to get non grafted nanas?

 

[aphid]

What I'm getting at is why not use the parent stock for all work on these weaker trees then layer them as the final step.
Also some trees that don't do well on their own why not layer them directly under the graft union in order to keep the better root stock and be able to hide the graft?

Mike Frary

That's what I did on various Japanese maple cultivars I bought from eBay, on the ones with ugly graft unions anyway. I wrapped a wire a few times right underneath the graft union and buried it deep into the soil. I haven't checked if roots came out, but it's been 2 years. The maples are still alive. I tried this same method on an American beech, and it died after a year.

 

[M. Frary]

Maples are a whole different animal though. Hinoki cypress doesn't take to layering very well. Now the root stock(arborvite I think) I don't know.

 

[kingsville grower]

Is it possible to air or ground layer the root stock that nanas are grafted onto. And is there somewhere to get non grafted nanas?

contact me, we have nanas cutting grown, compactas, nana gracilis, wicked tight(extreme miniature),and gracilis all grown from cuttings

 

[0soyoung]

Do you suppose because the root stock is stronger it let's us do more to the scion than one would normally do? Meaning quicker recovery times than normal

In most cases, yes. Putting Adair's favorite 'kokonoe' cultivar aside, Japanese white pines on thunbergii root stock is the most renowned example. The parviflora will grow much more vigorously and will also grow in warmer climes because of the graft. Some well done grafts will often 'vanish' with age, but most do not. Corkers are yet another example.

I think of graft unions as a bonsai design challenge - how am I going to disguise it / make it appear to not be there?

But, I do think you are right, when the rootstock is stronger, it lets us either do more to the scion we are growing for bonsai or it lets us have that cultivar in a climate in which it might not otherwise survive (maybe both).

 

[Adair M]

In most cases, yes. Putting Adair's favorite 'kokonoe' cultivar aside, Japanese white pines on thunbergii root stock is the most renowned example. The parviflora will grow much more vigorously and will also grow in warmer climes because of the graft. Some well done grafts will often 'vanish' with age, but most do not. Corkers are yet another example.

I think of graft unions as a bonsai design challenge - how am I going to disguise it / make it appear to not be there?

But, I do think you are right, when the rootstock is stronger, it lets us either do more to the scion we are growing for bonsai or it lets us have that cultivar in a climate in which it might not otherwise survive (maybe both).

Kokonoe and Zuisho will both airlayer (and ground layer) reasonably well. Zuisho is my favorite of the two, but both are excellent cultivars for bonsai.

But, yes, Mike, using a more vigorous (or hardy) rootstock is a longstanding practice in the horticultural business. Think roses!

 

[Kodama16]

I have both grafted and non grafted hinoki. The grafted do much better and let me push them harder. The non grafted die very easily in my heat.
I also have grafted and non grafted japanese maples. Again same result. The grafted never rot on me as the non grafted I really have to watch the water. Then they burn cause I can't over water. My maples I will build whole trees on a large tree then air layer them off. Works good.
Ive never made a air layer from a hinoki but I root cuttings all the time.

I think grafted onto rootstock of stronger trees will always make a stronger tree. But not the best looking bonsai. I think clean grafts though on a tree can lead to great looking bonsai though. I have some grafted material that if I didn't tell you it was grafted you'll never know.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Grafts are always commentedo on. I have an ugly graft on a weeping ryusen that died back in my yard. Tossed it in a pot to just play around with. Buy doubt I would purchase material with known graft for my collection. But,never say never...if something really spoke to me. I might be persuaded. But it would have to knock my socks off. When there are other species which are not.

Air layering below graft and trying to get roots at the base of the graft. That's a good thought process.

 

[Cadillactaste]

contact me, we have nanas cutting grown, compactas, nana gracilis, wicked tight(extreme miniature),and gracilis all grown from cuttings

Your Mark Comstock correct? Just trying to figure out who's who.

 

[kingsville grower]

Your Mark Comstock correct? Just trying to figure out who's who.

yes, and pre-bonsai mark

 

[Cadillactaste]

yes, and pre-bonsai mark

Thanks...I thought from another thread the two aliases were one and the same. So...your here as pre-bonsai mark as well? Or...elsewhere.