First time seed sewer- JBP advice?

[PNWMossback]

Does anyone have any advice for seed starting JBP and Scot's Pine? I've been cutting my teeth with nursery stock and with the nature of this addiction I either need to deepen my pockets or grow my own. I've got 10 acres of forested mountain terrain to grow on with just about any water condition and exposure type imaginable, VERY fertile clay heavy soil, so tips on field growing would be awesome! (Zone 5)

Main thoughts:
- What time of year is best for an outdoor pine seed tray?
- What size should they be before planting in burlap?
- Tips and tricks to improve germination percentage?
- How long (with proper care) should I expect to wait for workable material?

Seriously guys, I know I can't be the only one afraid to f**k up a 500 dollar JBP. But at $10 for 150 seeds, maybe there is a way to get the experience necessary to move up to one of the big boys someday.

 

[Ply]

Growing from seeds is great, but it is a long term journey. In good conditions and with the proper techniques used at the right time, a shohin size jbp can be made in roughly 10 years from seed. That's pretty much the minimum you're gonna look at with pines from seed. Larger size bonsai take even longer.

In terms of ground growing look up as much as you can find about Telperion Farms. They were arguably the best pre-bonsai pine growers in the west before their operation burned down. There's lots of info on them on this forum, and there's also a free podcast with Ryan Neil well worth listening to.

Note though, that they didn't ground grow from seed. They planted 2-ish years old seedlings that had been growing in pots and had since been wired.

 

[mj_barb]

Bonsai Tonight is a really good resource for growing JBP from seed. In my experience, they germinate very easily. I bought 30 seeds last year and yesterday counted 20 seedlings from that batch (with the seedling cutting technique applied, see BT blog for more on that). I just soaked in water and planted in a tray in the spring.

As for how quickly to turn seed into workable material - I’ve heard people say you can make some shohin JBP in 5 years from seed. I have 6 year old JBPs that are nowhere near ready for a pot, likely because I didn’t know what I was doing. There are options between $10 seeds and $500 material. I got a $40 JBP “bush” around the same time as those seeds and have learned way more playing with that than the seeds. I could see it in a pot soon.

I am still very much a beginner, and just wanted to share my experience. I love seeds and don’t discourage you from going that route. But personally I was of a similar mindset of “I don’t want to mess something expensive up, and seeds will solve all of my problems in X years.” I would suggest you get something you can afford, make the cuts, make the mistakes, and learn.

Brian Van Fleet also wrote a great book on developing JBP, you can find that on his blog.

Additionally I think they did a JBP from seed competition here awhile back, you could search for some of those progressions.

Bonsai Guides - Bonsai Tonight

Identifying Suitable Material for Bonsai - 5 posts showing what you can and can't learn from trees at different stages of development.

bonsaitonight.com

 

[Ryceman3]

There is a whole contest on this forum dedicated to growing JBP from seed where people from all over the world have started threads on developing their pines with a deadline of 6 years to get a result. Hours of reading in there alone and most likely area specific information you can glean, but as mentioned above, the other obvious go-to is Bonsai Tonight.

Might wanna reconsider the ”planting in burlap” thing… just sayin’.

 

[PNWMossback]

Growing from seeds is great, but it is a long term journey. In good conditions and with the proper techniques used at the right time, a shohin size jbp can be made in roughly 10 years from seed. That's pretty much the minimum you're gonna look at with pines from seed. Larger size bonsai take even longer.

In terms of ground growing look up as much as you can find about Telperion Farms. They were arguably the best pre-bonsai pine growers in the west before their operation burned down. There's lots of info on them on this forum, and there's also a free podcast with Ryan Neil well worth listening to.

Note though, that they didn't ground grow from seed. They planted 2-ish years old seedlings that had been growing in pots and had since been wired.

Thank you. Sounds like some great jumping off points for research. 10 years actually isn't as "bad" as I had expected to hear. God willing, I've got another 50-60 years in me and I'd love to see what can be done at those 10 year benchmarks. Sad to hear about the burning. That sounds like an amazing operation. What a tragic irony, given the lore of the name.

 

[PNWMossback]

There is a whole contest on this forum dedicated to growing JBP from seed where people from all over the world have started threads on developing their pines with a deadline of 6 years to get a result. Hours of reading in there alone and most likely area specific information you can glean, but as mentioned above, the other obvious go-to is Bonsai Tonight.

Might wanna reconsider the ”planting in burlap” thing… just sayin’.

I'll look into the contest for sure. Care to elaborate on the burlap? I've only heard that it holds a tighter root mass and makes for easier "yardidori"... though I admit I'm ignorant of any drawbacks.

 

[PNWMossback]

Bonsai Tonight is a really good resource for growing JBP from seed. In my experience, they germinate very easily. I bought 30 seeds last year and yesterday counted 20 seedlings from that batch (with the seedling cutting technique applied, see BT blog for more on that). I just soaked in water and planted in a tray in the spring.

As for how quickly to turn seed into workable material - I’ve heard people say you can make some shohin JBP in 5 years from seed. I have 6 year old JBPs that are nowhere near ready for a pot, likely because I didn’t know what I was doing. There are options between $10 seeds and $500 material. I got a $40 JBP “bush” around the same time as those seeds and have learned way more playing with that than the seeds. I could see it in a pot soon.

I am still very much a beginner, and just wanted to share my experience. I love seeds and don’t discourage you from going that route. But personally I was of a similar mindset of “I don’t want to mess something expensive up, and seeds will solve all of my problems in X years.” I would suggest you get something you can afford, make the cuts, make the mistakes, and learn.

Brian Van Fleet also wrote a great book on developing JBP, you can find that on his blog.

Additionally I think they did a JBP from seed competition here awhile back, you could search for some of those progressions.

Bonsai Guides - Bonsai Tonight

Identifying Suitable Material for Bonsai - 5 posts showing what you can and can't learn from trees at different stages of development.

bonsaitonight.com

Haha. Yeah, there's definitely a few options between the two price ranges. I think I was more trying to express that I feel unworthy of handling such material in my inexperience. Though someday it would be nice to feel confident enough to chop on one of those thick trunked beauties. Thanks for your input. It gives me a great starting point.

 

[Ryceman3]

I'll look into the contest for sure. Care to elaborate on the burlap? I've only heard that it holds a tighter root mass and makes for easier "yardidori"... though I admit I'm ignorant of any drawbacks.

Burlap might work for trees as a convenient method in the general nursery trade, but developing bonsai requires developing a decent root system and nebari. You need to be working the roots to get them ready for a bonsai pot. Wrapping them in burlap and compressing the root ball won’t get you a bonsai-ready tree. There are many methods to ground growing trees for bonsai, but I don’t know of any that rely on burlap and result in a good tree.