First Question: Field Grown JBP - Repot or Wait Until Next Year

[roberthu]

Hi all,

This is my first post here so please bear with me if I sound ignorant.

I have JBP that I have grown in the backyard for 6 years. Based on the foliage and buds I think it was pretty healthy and strong. So this spring, on March 14, I dug it out of the ground and potted it up in a pretty big pot. I did cut off some big roots that went too deep in the ground and also cut off some to fit the tree in the pot. But I want to say that the roots I cut off were less than 30% of the total root mass. The big mistake I made was I didn't use quality bonsai soil like Akadama or lava rock. I was worried that changing out too much soil would cause damage to the roots so I pretty much filled the pot with what it was growing in. So soil, or mud. And because it was just mud, I was not able to fill the bottom very well which likely caused a hollow under the roots somewhere. I say this because I can still feel the tree moving in the pot if I shake the trunk slightly. With all these in mind, I controlled water pretty tightly, only watering every 3-4 days. And when I water, I water for a long time until the holes at the bottom have water run through.

so now it has been a month and I start seeing some needles turning yellow and fall off if I touch them. This makes me really worried that something is wrong with the roots. I am in NE Atlanta, our temperature now is 70F in the day and drops to 45F in the night consistently.

So the questions is since I did such a terrible job when potting it up a month ago, should I repot it now or should I wait until next spring? The photos were taken a week after it was potted.

Thank you for looking and your suggestions in advance!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Are candles still developing or standing still? If still moving tree likely OK and IF so leave alone till spring. H2O carefully. Nice pot but inappropriate generally for pine and stage of development. Still need trunk development and better taper. When tree repotted next suggest back into ground or bigger grow box. Did well for 6 years. Don't quit now.

 

[roberthu]

Are candles still developing or standing still? If still moving tree likely OK and IF so leave alone till spring. H2O carefully. Nice pot but inappropriate generally for pine and stage of development. Still need trunk development and better taper. When tree repotted next suggest back into ground or bigger grow box. Did well for 6 years. Don't quit now.

Yes the candles are still growing and elongating. The needles just started to pop out on most candles. Only the strongest ones are still closed and just extending out.
Thank you for your suggestion. I dug it out because my wife wanted the garden back for her vegetables....

 

[penumbra]

Personally I would get it into a better mix, like right now. Never use dirt in a pot.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi all,

This is my first post here so please bear with me if I sound ignorant.

I have JBP that I have grown in the backyard for 6 years. Based on the foliage and buds I think it was pretty healthy and strong. So this spring, on March 14, I dug it out of the ground and potted it up in a pretty big pot. I did cut off some big roots that went too deep in the ground and also cut off some to fit the tree in the pot. But I want to say that the roots I cut off were less than 30% of the total root mass. The big mistake I made was I didn't use quality bonsai soil like Akadama or lava rock. I was worried that changing out too much soil would cause damage to the roots so I pretty much filled the pot with what it was growing in. So soil, or mud. And because it was just mud, I was not able to fill the bottom very well which likely caused a hollow under the roots somewhere. I say this because I can still feel the tree moving in the pot if I shake the trunk slightly. With all these in mind, I controlled water pretty tightly, only watering every 3-4 days. And when I water, I water for a long time until the holes at the bottom have water run through.

so now it has been a month and I start seeing some needles turning yellow and fall off if I touch them. This makes me really worried that something is wrong with the roots. I am in NE Atlanta, our temperature now is 70F in the day and drops to 45F in the night consistently.

So the questions is since I did such a terrible job when potting it up a month ago, should I repot it now or should I wait until next spring? The photos were taken a week after it was potted.

Thank you for looking and your suggestions in advance!
View attachment 297189
View attachment 297190

So here is my thoughts, the tree has a young and vigorous top, most lower branches have been pruned of apical buds, no sign of candles on them. Also one or more larger branches have been removed recently. As a JBP with vigorous top recovery should be a good bet.

Repot was so so, poor dirt, poor drainage, too small a container for stage of development. Possible vacant areas to promote root rot.
Risky to redo right now, suggest careful watering. water thoroughly but allow to dry out a bit between waterings. Check soil is dry about 1 inch below surface before watering again. If soil sags add more to ensure adequate coverage of roots. suggest particles to aid drainage. Pumice is a good choice. From time to time poke holes in dirt with chopsticks to ensure good drainage till early fall. Position in full sun. Light fertilizer in six weeks, giving the roots time to recover.

Plan on a repot to grow box and free draining soil mix in the early fall. Do not prune the lower branches any further until new growth is noticed in the interior on the lower branches. When developing a pine one of the most important early stages is to protect lower branch growth for future development.
Do not wire, remove any other foliage or otherwise stress the plant this year before the repot in the fall.
Best wishes.

 

[River's Edge]

Here are a couple of pictures to illustrate JBP in development 7-15 years. Note that the trunk development is basically finished before a maintenance pot is in use. Up until then inground, grow box or Andersen flat is used. Also note how the lower branches are carefully developed while the top is thinned out and
allowed to extend as it thickens the trunk below! Over time needles and lateral branches on the upper areas are removed to prevent shading and die back below. Hope this helps.

 

[roberthu]

So here is my thoughts, the tree has a young and vigorous top, most lower branches have been pruned of apical buds, no sign of candles on them. Also one or more larger branches have been removed recently. As a JBP with vigorous top recovery should be a good bet.

Repot was so so, poor dirt, poor drainage, too small a container for stage of development. Possible vacant areas to promote root rot.
Risky to redo right now, suggest careful watering. water thoroughly but allow to dry out a bit between waterings. Check soil is dry about 1 inch below surface before watering again. If soil sags add more to ensure adequate coverage of roots. suggest particles to aid drainage. Pumice is a good choice. From time to time poke holes in dirt with chopsticks to ensure good drainage till early fall. Position in full sun. Light fertilizer in six weeks, giving the roots time to recover.

Plan on a repot to grow box and free draining soil mix in the early fall. Do not prune the lower branches any further until new growth is noticed in the interior on the lower branches. When developing a pine one of the most important early stages is to protect lower branch growth for future development.
Do not wire, remove any other foliage or otherwise stress the plant this year before the repot in the fall.
Best wishes.

Thank you so much for the detailed suggestions. I did some light pruning last year when it was still in the ground to prevent it from shading neighboring trees. You are right that the tree is top heavy with a lot of new shoots elongating.
I will follow your advice to waiting until fall or even next spring to repot with a good soil mix. I am going to go with Ryan‘s mix of equal part of akadama, lava rock and pumic. I will probably hold off on fertilizer a bit longer though to see if the tree actually stays strong in the long run. Right now my top priority is to control water in the soil for sure.
Again thank you very much for your advice.

 

[roberthu]

Here are a couple of pictures to illustrate JBP in development 7-15 years. Note that the trunk development is basically finished before a maintenance pot is in use. Up until then inground, grow box or Andersen flat is used. Also note how the lower branches are carefully developed while the top is thinned out and
allowed to extend as it thickens the trunk below! Over time needles and lateral branches on the upper areas are removed to prevent shading and die back below. Hope this helps.
View attachment 297270View attachment 297271

You have a very nicely developed tree there. I thought about cutting mine back hard but don’t feel confident about it just yet. I will probably get a grow box or Anderson flat to let it recover for a year or two before doing serious pruning. Healthy foliage is necessary for root recovery and development based on what learned from Ryan.

 

[River's Edge]

You have a very nicely developed tree there. I thought about cutting mine back hard but don’t feel confident about it just yet. I will probably get a grow box or Anderson flat to let it recover for a year or two before doing serious pruning. Healthy foliage is necessary for root recovery and development based on what learned from Ryan.

I would suggest your tree is not strong enough through out to cut back hard! the growth and energy is top heavy, cutting back will severely weaken the tree. That is why I suggested strengthening the base area first. You can do this by reducing some of the top candles and balancing the growth. However, at this point I would wait for full recovery of the roots.
My recommendation for a mix includes granite grit, the reason being that pines extend considerable length and develop lots of upper foliage during development. Not unusual for them to extend 8-10 feet overall even with staged reduction in the first ten years for change of direction and taper development. Thus having some weight in the grow box or Andersen flat becomes important. Developing pines in containers are top heavy and prone to damage in the wind or from accidental jostling. Not a problem if in the ground.
I use Akadama, Black Lava, Granite Grit and Pumice. All seived to similar particle size. The bottom layer is larger pumice particles and less than 1/2 inch deep. Lots of holes in the grow boxes. Pines like dry feet. This is a very fast draining mix and it is almost impossible to overwater. As this contains no organic content, I use organic fertilizers and prefer low numbers overall. If you are in a hotter climate and watering is an issue then I would recommend a higher percentage of Akadama and Pumice with lower amounts of Lava and Granite Grit. If in a wet winter climate than reduce the Akadama or tip containers to reduce retention in the rainy season.
This approach can develop pines with 3 inch bases within eight years from seed! I recommend that grow boxes be a minimum 4 1/2 to 5 inches deep during development and that the nebari remain covered during development.

 

[roberthu]

I would suggest your tree is not strong enough through out to cut back hard! the growth and energy is top heavy, cutting back will severely weaken the tree. That is why I suggested strengthening the base area first. You can do this by reducing some of the top candles and balancing the growth. However, at this point I would wait for full recovery of the roots.
My recommendation for a mix includes granite grit, the reason being that pines extend considerable length and develop lots of upper foliage during development. Not unusual for them to extend 8-10 feet overall even with staged reduction in the first ten years for change of direction and taper development. Thus having some weight in the grow box or Andersen flat becomes important. Developing pines in containers are top heavy and prone to damage in the wind or from accidental jostling. Not a problem if in the ground.
I use Akadama, Black Lava, Granite Grit and Pumice. All seived to similar particle size. The bottom layer is larger pumice particles and less than 1/2 inch deep. Lots of holes in the grow boxes. Pines like dry feet. This is a very fast draining mix and it is almost impossible to overwater. As this contains no organic content, I use organic fertilizers and prefer low numbers overall. If you are in a hotter climate and watering is an issue then I would recommend a higher percentage of Akadama and Pumice with lower amounts of Lava and Granite Grit. If in a wet winter climate than reduce the Akadama or tip containers to reduce retention in the rainy season.
This approach can develop pines with 3 inch bases within eight years from seed! I recommend that grow boxes be a minimum 4 1/2 to 5 inches deep during development and that the nebari remain covered during development.

Yeah I didn’t mean I would prune it hard this year or next year. I meant that one or two years after it is put in a grow out box to recover and regain energy.
Getting a 3” trunk in 8 years is pretty amazing. I will definitely try that out! thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!

 

[penumbra]

Good luck. I hope it survives its mud mix. If we get into a rainy season you better be prepared to protect it from too much rain. Pines hate living in soup.
I have already said what I personally would do and nothing posted here has changed my view.

 

[River's Edge]

Good luck. I hope it survives its mud mix. If we get into a rainy season you better be prepared to protect it from too much rain. Pines hate living in soup.
I have already said what I personally would do and nothing posted here has changed my view.

Not trying to change your mind, I agree that a change of soil would be very beneficial. The OP is newer to the hobby and the initial repot was over a month ago. I agree careful watering and management is needed for best results. If you or I were doing the work than it would be different I suspect.
An inexperienced bare root to change the soil completely out at this time would kill it for sure in my opinion.

 

[penumbra]

Not trying to change your mind, I agree that a change of soil would be very beneficial. The OP is newer to the hobby and the initial repot was over a month ago. I agree careful watering and management is needed for best results. If you or I were doing the work than it would be different I suspect.
An inexperienced bare root to change the soil completely out at this time would kill it for sure in my opinion.

I was under the impression that the picture was recent in which case it still looks good to me. I would not bare root it. I never have bare rooted a pine except a seedling.

 

[River's Edge]

I was under the impression that the picture was recent in which case it still looks good to me. I would not bare root it. I never have bare rooted a pine except a seedling.

According to the original post. Picture was taken I week after repot, repot was march 14th, 5 weeks ago, OP mentions needles are yellowing over some of the tree at this point, no picture of the current state!

 

[penumbra]

I missed that. That changes things. When I have a pot that is full of muck that drains slowly and it is not time to re pot. I make channels from the surface to the bottom of the pot with copsticks and fill the channels with coarse rock or something similar. It may sound odd but it works very well for me.

 

[roberthu]

According to the original post. Picture was taken I week after repot, repot was march 14th, 5 weeks ago, OP mentions needles are yellowing over some of the tree at this point, no picture of the current state!

I just took some photos of the yellowing needles today. It’s on a few branches not everywhere. What’s concerning is the yellow needles fall off easily when touched.

 

[roberthu]

Good luck. I hope it survives its mud mix. If we get into a rainy season you better be prepared to protect it from too much rain. Pines hate living in soup.
I have already said what I personally would do and nothing posted here has changed my view.

Yeah you are right. I actually just moved it under the balcony today due to the rain. I am prepared to do that for this year. The location of the tree is pretty good: facing south with full sun and and only a few feet away from rain protection.

 

[roberthu]

Another shot of the full tree today. Hope it helps.

 

[River's Edge]

I missed that. That changes things. When I have a pot that is full of muck that drains slowly and it is not time to re pot. I make channels from the surface to the bottom of the pot with copsticks and fill the channels with coarse rock or something similar. It may sound odd but it works very well for me.

Agreed, those ideas were included in my response in case you did not notice that as I suggested poking holes and adding coarse substrate such as pumice.

 

[River's Edge]

I just took some photos of the yellowing needles today. It’s on a few branches not everywhere. What’s concerning is the yellow needles fall off easily when touched.
View attachment 297366View attachment 297367

Those are second or third year needles and a normal stress response at this point. Watch the last years needles and opening candles, if the tree is recovering they will continue to extend new needles outward and retain their color. If you notice needles turning yellow closest to the branch first and then progressing outward. That is usually an indication of too much water retention. Poke more holes and allow the rootball to dry out a bit between watering. The yellowing that I see seems to be from the needle tips towards the base of the needle. This is an indication that the tree is shedding the older needles as a stress response. Recommend you stay the course, wait for recovery at this point and begin a staged repot in the fall. If the tree responds very well than you can do 1/2 HBR in the fall and the other half in the spring. If you are not sure and want to be extra safe than do a three stage repot. Step One deal with central core and bottom section, remove dead roots, cut back downward thick roots, replace with free draining mix. Step Two, do 1/2 HBR on the weakest side. Remove dead roots cut back strongest and replace with free draining mix. Step Three, do the other 1/2 HBR. Voila, properly repotted and ready to recover and flourish for several years. Step One this fall, Step two next spring, Step Three next Fall.
Note: I typically use this three step method for collected tree's ( after initial recovery), compacted nursery trees, any tree that is in poor soil or very weak condition. The limited disturbance and slower method dealing with the weakest aspects of the root ball first makes a difference allowing trees to use their strongest sections to recover first before they are reduced and weakened.

Good Luck, I think you will be fine if you are very careful with the watering and keep the tree in the sun. PM me if you have any questions.