First Post - First Mugo - Advice on First Steps Please (and thanks).

[Kelly]

Greetings all - especially Vance (we "met" on utube).
Just got accepted and this is my first post. Just bought my first Mugo (I have other bonsai) and wonder if Vance or others more experienced than I could comment on the first steps I should take with this Mugo.
Searched some of the multitude of posts and ran across one "A question for Vance Wood" that compiles many of Vance's previous posts into one thread - care, repotting, candling, etc. to care, shape and re pot a Mugo.
I live in Ottawa Canada.
I attend a bonsai club here and took the tree there (as per the pics). The experts there all said "too late" (4 June) for "anything" repot or bud pinching, etc. Conversely most posts here indicate "after Father's day" ... not trying to start a ruckus ... just want to do the right thing to start this tree towards being a bonsai someday.
Please comment as to what to do this year .. repot? The soil now is virtually all sand. I can mix soil - thinking 2/3rds of the sand (following Vance's repotting guidance) with chicken grit (e.g. 5mm granite), composted pine bark (5-10 mm or 1/4-1/2 in) flakes to allow the current soil to drain better.
What size pot or pond basket? Not sure what a pond basket is ...
Candling and buds - I admit I'm confused ... If someone could briefly explain the difference between them. This tree has long brown "candles?" that are slowly forming into new needles that I think are going to be the "candles". I have already pinched some (e.g. 4/5) of the triple brown candles into two only. I left the inner or weaker brown candles alone to develop them.
I use Green Dream on my other bonsais - organic, slow release 7-5-7. Ok here also?
In summary - what to do this summer including pruning ... repot ... ? Knucke elimination? Open up tree.
I am rapidly becoming aware that mugos don't like too much done annually and am prepared to be patient.
I apologize upfront on not reading every post on each of these subjects - I will but wanted comments on this tree for this area.
I have already learned a lot from reading threads on this site and want to thank any/all upfront.
Cheers
Kelly

 

[Lazylightningny]

Hi Kelly. Try starting here... http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...-for-Vance-Wood&highlight=question+vance+wood

and I'm sure others will chime in.

Welcome!

 

[Paulpash]

What size pot or pond basket? Not sure what a pond basket is ...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...mO7QbZxoDwBQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=643

Choose one that leaves a little room for your tree to grow into. Others with more pine experience will chime in.

 

[Kelly]

Thanks ... more questions ..

Sorry about all the questions ... just trying to get going ... then will follow Vance's guidance once I find where I fit into it (young tree or older, etc.)

Thanks for the ref to pond baskets ... think that is the way I will go. I would appreciate some comments on the size of the pond basket ... the nursery "pot" is 11 inches high and 12" across ... Following Vance's advice in the Vance compilation ... I would need a pot still ~12 across and maybe 6 inches high? If I "take a saw and cut away 1/3 to 1/2. I will follow the "pie cuts" and/or the "3 cuts into the soil mass" process and replenish 1/3 of the soil with a free draining bonsai mix.
The tree appears to extend a couple inches into the soil before there are any roots per comments from several experts. I will repot or fill to that level giving me a couple more inches of trunk.
Still have questions for "this year" re the long brown "candles" or any pruning (not for shaping) but for getting the tree into the pond basket ... The Vance compilation is a little confusing for me as a newbie Mugo owner ... Not sure if my tree is considered "young" (e.g. "you can bare root if the tree is young") or if mine qualifies for "cutting back this year's growth" for only for 3 years this initial repot into a pond basket ...

I welcome any comments. The Vance compilation is super helpful ... if one knows the starting point ...
I will be away in British Columbia 7-20 June ... then plan on getting this thing into a pond basket ... I will be monitoring emails but apologize if there is a delay in responses.
Thanks up front. Please take a look at the pics and comment.
Cheers
Kelly

 

[Vance Wood]

Your tree is about run of the mill for Mugos collected at garden centers. You need a pond basket that is 10" X 10" by 6" deep, sorry I don't do millimeters too well. Those measurements are of the ones I currently have sitting on my benches waiting for their next victims.

Did any of these people that told you it was too late to work on these trees actually have one? Did any of them actually have one for a while but it died? I really am serious about those replies, and I would appreciate you sharing that information.

OK here is what you do. Make sure you read the following careful before you do any thing here and ask questions if you have them. Start now by removing the tree from the nursery container. It already looks to me that the kind of soil used for Mugos grown in Canada is a lot different than down here in the States. Using only your fingers remove the soil off the top of the soil ball that comes off easily. DO NOT USE ANY KIND OF TOOL FOR THIS EFFORT. You want to make sure the soil mass removed down to the beginning of the root system. For design purposes you want to know where the actual base of the tree begins.

Put the tree back into the nursery container and wait till the end of June or the first of July. At this point you should remove any growth that you know you will not need for a bonsai. Don't get carried away and if you are cutting any heavy branches leave a stubb at the trunk. We will deal with that latter, this is very important if you do not want portions of your trunk dying. This is the initial styling and it depends a lot on your eye and what you think it should look like. This removal process should not take more than 50% of the total foliage mass at this point.

Once more remove the tree from the nursery pot. With a saw or large kitchen knife cut off no more than one half of the soil mass from the bottom obviously. If you have a root rake take the roots that are growing around the outside perimeter of the soil mass on the and loosen them. Do not go digging into the remains of the soil mass you just want those roots on the outside to be freed up and that's it. If the tree is really pot bound and the soil is really compacted you can cut into the remaining soil mass in three equally distributed locations around the soil mass. Cut into the soil mass up to the base but not through it. It is possible to remove some small slices at these points that look like small pieces of a pie. Hopefully you have a goodly amount of bonsai soil available. If you don't, get some, or make some, just plain old dirt is not what you want. A good draining bonsai soil is critical to the success of a Mugo bonsai at this stage.

Put some bonsai soil in the bottom of the pond basket until the soil mass of your tree is elevated to within an inch of the top of the pond basket. Then fill in around the soil mass in the pond basket and water well. Do not mess with the candles at this point it is not important now though it is possible if you have not removed very much growth in your initial pruning.

Make sure the tree gets plenty of sun but does not bake in the afternoon sun when it should have partial shade. Water at least once a day misting the foliage. It is almost impossible to over-water a tree in a pond basket. The thing about Mugos: They like and need a lot of water but they cannot sit with wet feet, the roots will rot. This is why it is critical that you use a decent bonsai soil that drains really well.

 

[Kelly]

Re Comments from Vance 04 Jun

Vance
Thanks so much. I take it then that the tree is not "young"?
The soil the tree is in is virtually all small grit sand - no bark or grit/stones, etc.
I will get a pond basket per your dimensions.
As to the initial shaping - I will call a couple guys from the club here for some help as I'm pretty new to the "envisioning" of the final (years away) product. Copy <50%. Thanks.
My other bonsais do well in soil I mix ... its basically 1/3 turfex (pitching mound artificial clay) and chicken grit 5-8mm or 1/4-3/8", then 1/3 sand (all from the nursery pot I'm thinking) and then 1/3 composted pine bark (sifted) to 3/8-3/4" size(ish). That means it almost drains too well as you pour water in the top and seconds later it comes out (multiple waterings on hot days). Will that do?
I will post some pictures.
I will also post a couple pics before I do this to hopefully get some comments/help re some knuckles that are already there ... thinking irregular upright ... from the large curve to the right as it leaves the soil to past a knuckle (as in trim the branches from that knuckle in the pic) to the largest trunk that curves upright and splits into two. Keep a back branch and try and preserve some "low" branches - more on this later. That's what I am thinking ... but slowly as the tree gets used to the pot and limbs survive. Hard in an email.
Overall - thanks very much - your comments are very helpful. I will certainly ask questions as I go.
Copy also - no candling.
As to "do they own a mugo" not sure ... one older gentleman repotted a single upright mugo last month (in the club) and he brought it in last week and it was dying - 1.5 inch trunk up to 10ish inches with a couple pads (small) and it was half yellow. I will certainly pass on your advice and comments to the club.
We had the same (worst winter in 100+ years) as you in MI ... lots of folks lost trees. I'm just starting after 39 years in the Air Force so my trees are new.
Again THANKS ... you have started me with exactly what I need.
Cheers
Kelly

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks for your reply, it is important to me to follow this stuff up. The older gentelman that brought in the Mugo that is dying is probably because it was repotted in the Spring. Every body want to do two things: One; complain that Mugos are difficult to repot and don't do well and Two; repot them in the Spring. Spring repotting is almost always guaranteed to be a very difficult event for the tree to recover from. If some of these guys come in to help you, ask them first is they have any Mugos and for how many years. If you find one who has had Mugos for more than ten years than I would listen to that guy but odds are you wont find one who has one longer than its first repotting as evidenced by your prior example.

If you in fact do get help and I hope you do, realize that most of them don't, or probably don't have a clue what I am telling you should be done. The point is; they may try to talk you out of doing what I think you should do. As to the age of your tree it is probably seven to ten years. It's not old but is is not a seedling either. You can do what ever you want to do but success or failure hinges on the choices you make.

Here is a rogues gallery of some of my Mugos that have been bonsai by my methods for ten to twenty years, some more. All of these trees are nursery Mugos ranging in original cost from $5.00 to $25.00.

By the way Kelly; I noticed the tree had a tag on it. What did it say? Usually they identify the cultivar or sub-species.

 

[Paradox]

You need a pond basket that is 10" X 10" by 6" deep, sorry I don't do millimeters too well.

254mm x 254mm x 152 mm

I like the trunk on this tree. Seems to have a nice curve to it.

Good luck with it!

 

[Vance Wood]

254mm x 254mm x 152 mm

I like the trunk on this tree. Seems to have a nice curve to it.

Good luck with it!

I agree this tree has great potential. If I had come accros it I would not have hesitated to snatch it up, I can't always say that with all of the trees people show me.

 

[fore]

Just yesterday, I found a new bud on a trunk stub from cuts made in March. I didn't think Mugo's pushed new buds onto a trunk w. no foliage...a real surprise. Is this normal behavior for mugo's?

 

[Vance Wood]

Just yesterday, I found a new bud on a trunk stub from cuts made in March. I didn't think Mugo's pushed new buds onto a trunk w. no foliage...a real surprise. Is this normal behavior for mugo's?

It happens but not frequent enough to be predictable, it depends on the vigor of the tree I suspect.

 

[Kelly]

More Info

Vance and all others,
Thank you for the comments. I appreciate your concern and agree with your comments. Despite my short time in attending the club; I have encountered those who have a lot to say and do without demonstrated success. Having said that, I have met some great folks too.
The tag on this tree indicates that it is a Pinus Mugo Pumilo and cost $29.95 Cdn or a $26 USD.
Please comment on my soil comments in my last post. I think it should be good.
I won't use any fertilizer for a month after the initial potting in the pond basket. After that what do you use or recommend?
I am going to repot this in the last week of June. I will try and tag some of the branches with different colors (e.g. red=cut and green=keep) as I find - as a novice - that the hardest part is envisioning the tree in a few years. I can make a bonsai (not bragging) look like one (no expert) for "now" but am learning how to keep this or that for years forward. I will post those pics or even a short video and wait for your comments before I cut for the initial shaping.
After that and a couple years - we can get into more discrete shape, design, etc.
I greatly appreciate your time and comments (everyone).
Cheers
Kelly
p.s after all the reading and advice - I am going to follow yours re timing, technique, process. You certainly have the experience and your trees are awesome.

 

[Vance Wood]

Your soil mix sounds fine, go with it as long as you have enough. Surprisingly Mugos are not that particular as long as the soil drains really well.

Thank You about the trees. I only included them to show you, or anyone else that might have questions, I do know a little, maybe a very little, about what I am saying. While the many that claim I am crazy, stupid, wrong, and misinformed can show nothing about growing Mugos other than to claim they cannot be grown here------where-ever here might be.

 

[Kelly]

First Mugo Repot 21 Jun 14 - Questions and Pics - Request Comments.

Greetings Vance et al - Request comments re the repot and help with the initial styling. Very concerned with removing too many branches on initial repot into pond basket.


Background: Nursery tree purchase May 14. Removed 3-5 candles in May to prevent triple candles forming. A few (2-4) candles were very long (2-3 inches) - broke them off approximately halfway back in late May. On 5 Jun - removed one small "twig" 1/4" diameter near base late May.

Note the tree from the nursery was in fine sand - almost clay - no grit, bark - just sand that was almost "gooey" when wet.

Waited - per Vance's directions - for late June and have repotted it into a 10 inch pond basket with very well draining soil - 1/4 each - original pot sand, turfex 1/8inch, granite grit 1/4 inch, composted pine bark 1/4-1/2 inch.

Notes on repot - (see pics) - when I removed the nursery paper pot - the tree was not "root bound" with little or no white growth common to pines leading me to think it was repotted recently?? Also, the soil or sand was very loose and started breaking away very easily with little or no help from me. No tools were used. The sand was damp/wet and just started falling away. I cut away the bottom 4 inches of the soil / nursery pot and then placed the tree in the pond basket on top of an inch of my soil. The tree had at least 1/2 to 2/3rds of the original sand in the new pot. I then put my soil around the tree and worked it in around the perimeter with a chopstick.

I am concerned about the top of the root mass of the tree or nebari I believe it is called (remember, I'm a newbie and this is my first mugo). The soil surrounding the nebari simply fell off - no tools or finger pulling by me - it was damp sand - This revealed long small <1/4" roots coming off the trunk higher up (2-3" up the trunk) and then some knarly or knotted roots right at the base. I am concerned that I potted it with too much of this nebari exposed - Comment please and what to do about it (e.g. repot lower).
Should those long strangly roots be removed?
Frankly, with cutting off the 4 inches on the bottom and the looseness of the top soil - I didn't know what else to do ... Sooo ... I took some of the original pot sand and sort of packed it around the nebari exposed roots - this with a mix of my soil but mostly the sand (thought here was to keep as much of the original bacteria, soil, etc. around the nebari. You can see the results. I then mixed some of the old soil with warmish rain water and made a very very loose slurry to again try and capture some of the good bacteria with the new, initial watering. The pond basket worked well as the soil drains after approx. 15 seconds and keeps draining for a few minutes after.

Next discussion - Initial styling. Very concerned with removing too many branches this year. As per the background - a few candles were removed or cut back in May and I removed a few growing twigs (part yellow) less than an inch long that were on the main trunk. Vance - in an earlier post in this thread indicated not to remove more than 50 % of the foliage. I left a one inch stub on the one branch removed so far. It was low on the trunk and touched the soil. I have lots of time (newly retired) so am in no hurry.

I have tied red ribbon around 3 or 4 low branches I think should be removed this year. Not to say that this is the final or even initial design. Just don't want the tree to die ... As to initial styling - I think informal upright is the way forward. The tree has a lot of bigger branches in the mushroom nursery style. There is a great bend in the trunk and then the tree has a knurl with 3 smaller branches and the other branches that "flow" along the trunk line or turn. Comments would be appreciated. Not sure re semi-cascade or cascade ... Overall I think the tree has good potential but large branches will have to cut (but when? - next year?).

Re the pics - I have a video too (.avi) but don't think I can post that ... I have put labels on the pond basket as in North, West, South, East and have taken the pics so that the viewer can see root level or level North and then the next pic is "high North" with a couple "birds eye" pics as well. I will post them with the progression of the tree from the nursery pot to the re-pot, then to the red ribbons for branches to cut this year.

Sorry for the long post - appreciate all comments/suggestions especially from Vance. In summary, two concerns - is the nebari too exposed and do I then need to re-repot it lower? Second, how much to remove this year and comments on initial style ... I'm a newbie and have other bonsais but have never styled a mugo so am pretty open. I intend to remove the red ribbon branches but suspect that more could be removed without hurting the tree.
Will put more pics in next reply ...
THANKS to ALL!!!

 

[Kelly]

Additional Pics Repot and Styling First Mugo

Here are more pics on the repot ... having trouble attaching the pics.
Kelly

 

[Kelly]

Styling Questions First Mugo - Request Comments

Additional Pics re styling;
Next discussion - Initial styling. Very concerned with removing too many branches this year. As per the background - a few candles were removed or cut back in May and I removed a few growing twigs (part yellow) less than an inch long that were on the main trunk. Vance - in an earlier post in this thread indicated not to remove more than 50 % of the foliage. I left a one inch stub on the one branch removed so far. It was low on the trunk and touched the soil. I have lots of time (newly retired) so am in no hurry.

I have tied red ribbon around 3 or 4 low branches I think should be removed this year. Not to say that this is the final or even initial design. Just don't want the tree to die ... As to initial styling - I think informal upright is the way forward. The tree has a lot of bigger branches in the mushroom nursery style. There is a great bend in the trunk and then the tree has a knurl with 3 smaller branches and the other branches that "flow" along the trunk line or turn. Comments would be appreciated. Not sure re semi-cascade or cascade ... Overall I think the tree has good potential but large branches will have to cut (but when? - next year?).

Re the pics - I have a video too (.avi) but don't think I can post that ... I have put labels on the pond basket as in North, West, South, East and have taken the pics so that the viewer can see root level or level North and then the next pic is "high North" with a couple "birds eye" pics as well. I will post them with the progression of the tree from the nursery pot to the re-pot, then to the red ribbons for branches to cut this year.

Sorry for the long post - appreciate all comments/suggestions especially from Vance. In summary, two concerns - is the nebari too exposed and do I then need to re-repot it lower? Second, how much to remove this year and comments on initial style ... I'm a newbie and have other bonsais but have never styled a mugo so am pretty open. I intend to remove the red ribbon branches but suspect that more could be removed without hurting the tree.
Will put more pics in next reply ...
THANKS to ALL!!!

 

[Kelly]

Styling Questions First Mugo - South and West

More views ... regret length but can only upload 5 pics ... ideas on how to upload more?
In summary, repot and now styling. Appreciate any comments ... could email privately or even call on the phone (N. America).
Thanks in advance ...
Kelly

 

[Vance Wood]

More views ... regret length but can only upload 5 pics ... ideas on how to upload more?
In summary, repot and now styling. Appreciate any comments ... could email privately or even call on the phone (N. America).
Thanks in advance ...
Kelly

Obviously Kelly, I found your thread. The tree looks really healthy and when did it go into the pond basket? You could remove some additional branches if you desired. This should not hurt the tree. I will take a closer look at the trunk sometime this evening and see what I would do.

 

[Kelly]

U[date 23 June for Vance

Vance - hi and thanks ... really regret not being more specific re the emails/threads. My apologies. The repot was 21 Jun so a couple days ago. Will send you a better pic of the branches from underneath the tree so that folks and you can please comment on what the basic or initial style could/should be.
No hurry - I know you have a show and others also asking.
I could take a short video of the tree and sent it to your email ... That might help.
I owe you ...
THANKs!
Cheers
Kelly