Field growing Japanese black pine

[MagicMike]

I have quite a few Japanese black pine growing in the ground in grow bags. I haven't heard anyone discuss the nuances of what to cut, when to cut, or how to cut to encourage the fastest base thickening and keep lower growth healthy. I have heard to not trim or cut back to encourage rapid thickening, but you also need to keep growth as close to the base a possible and get movement lower on the trunk. I am afraid the lower growth will get shaded out and die due to the top getting so big, and only growing formal upright trees. Now I am letting it grow free not trimming anything. Is this the correct first steps to growing larger JBP or do I just need to keep one leader growing and cut all the whirls back to one branch to allow lower branches to survive? I've also been thinking of when to chop the trunk to introduce movement, but when is the right time to do this and how big of a wound will I be able to get to callous on a JBP? Any help is appreciated.

 

[ptolomeo]

I would recomend you to listen to the podcast from Mirai with Telperion Farms. Lots of valuable insight in it. There is also some thread in the forum with a summary.

 

[MagicMike]

I have listened to the Talperion podcast it is very insightful but didn't answer all my questions. I have also read through multiple threads with the same result good info just not what I am looking for.

I would recomend you to listen to the podcast from Mirai with Telperion Farms. Lots of valuable insight in it. There is also some thread in the forum with a summary.

 

[jonf]

the fastest way to thicken pines is to let the central leader grow tall. side branches on the sacrifice branch are usually cut off annually to allow light to the bottom keeper branches.

On mine, I cut off the side sacrifice branches in winter and leave the central candle to repeat the next year. Even if the central candle is weaker, I cut off side branches because that's what growers in Japan have found to be most effective for thickening. Old needles on the sacrifice can be pulled to balance energy, but will also weaken the sacrifice branch, so it depends whether you want to pull needles or leave them.

As for keeper branches, they are treated differently than a finished bonsai. Growers will often "decandle" or cut further back into previous years' growth once a year in winter or spring, to prevent thickening while also keeping branches as short as possible by avoiding double flushes.

 

[Srt8madness]

Movement should be added prior to planting in ground. Sacrifice branch is grown out to fuel trunk growth, but foliage that would block sun from lower branches is pruned.

 

[GGB]

bonsaitonight.com has every little detail anyone could ever need to grow high quality JBP from scratch. I like to find a "bible" for each species or genus I use, and bonsai tonight is my Black pine bible. everything you need in one place

 

[MagicMike]

the fastest way to thicken pines is to let the central leader grow tall. side branches on the sacrifice branch are usually cut off annually to allow light to the bottom keeper branches.

On mine, I cut off the side sacrifice branches in winter and leave the central candle to repeat the next year. Even if the central candle is weaker, I cut off side branches because that's what growers in Japan have found to be most effective for thickening. Old needles on the sacrifice can be pulled to balance energy, but will also weaken the sacrifice branch, so it depends whether you want to pull needles or leave them.

As for keeper branches, they are treated differently than a finished bonsai. Growers will often "decandle" or cut further back into previous years' growth once a year in winter or spring, to prevent thickening while also keeping branches as short as possible by avoiding double flushes.

Thank you for the insightful reply!

 

[MagicMike]

bonsaitonight.com has every little detail anyone could ever need to grow high quality JBP from scratch. I like to find a "bible" for each species or genus I use, and bonsai tonight is my Black pine bible. everything you need in one place

Jonas is an amazing resource, but I have scoured his blog and I cant find what to do with JBP in the field. He is awesome as far as what to do after they are collected. Or starting from seed and colander or container growing, but not the nuances of field growing. If its on there I cannot find it, please leave a link if you have.

 

[GGB]

He has a great podcast episode about field growing in general but I guess the word I ignored was "nuances". I can't imagine field growing being too much different of a process, At least I don't do anything differently when I field grow. It just grows way faster and more vigorously

 

[It's Kev]

there is a 95% chance that this video is totally useless coz i dont know what your end goal is with how big you want your tree to get, and this guy is aiming for super tiny

However

the point that he pointed his leader away from the base of the tree could be useful, so if you want to adapt this for field growing, maybe just point your leader north-ish, then the base of the tree could get more light to ensure less leggy bottom growth

so here goes, watch, dont watch

ps, i also side with @GGB , bonsaitonight is awesome

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
My take on field grown pines is that you need to cut the top out after the first 2-4 years depending on vigour etc. By cutting back you get a whole load of back budding and starter branches. Then for the next 3-5 years you let a sacrifice grow like crazy following the others posts advice. Then cut back and start a new sacrifice etc. It depends on your final goal - fat 3 + inch trunk(6-8 years)

, or less years and less girth trunk. That’s your choice.
That’s my version of things pine in the ground. The cut back is important because if you don’t and you cut back later after say 5-6 years you risk having very little side branches, or they have little vigour.


Two different JBP, you can see the left photo has a sacrifice I haven’t cut yet but it was cut back after 2 years. The right photo is where I left it another year and you can see the newly cut back trunk and my new sacrifice just starting a new sacrifice. If I did this again I would choose to copy the left photo as there are lots of bottom branches and easy to get the next sacrifice ready while the initial sacrifice is growing madly.
My thoughts etc.,
Charles

 

[MagicMike]

Hi,
My take on field grown pines is that you need to cut the top out after the first 2-4 years depending on vigour etc. By cutting back you get a whole load of back budding and starter branches. Then for the next 3-5 years you let a sacrifice grow like crazy following the others posts advice. Then cut back and start a new sacrifice etc. It depends on your final goal - fat 3 + inch trunk(6-8 years)

, or less years and less girth trunk. That’s your choice.
That’s my version of things pine in the ground. The cut back is important because if you don’t and you cut back later after say 5-6 years you risk having very little side branches, or they have little vigour.

View attachment 459858View attachment 459859
Two different JBP, you can see the left photo has a sacrifice I haven’t cut yet but it was cut back after 2 years. The right photo is where I left it another year and you can see the newly cut back trunk and my new sacrifice just starting a new sacrifice. If I did this again I would choose to copy the left photo as there are lots of bottom branches and easy to get the next sacrifice ready while the initial sacrifice is growing madly.
My thoughts etc.,
Charles

Awesome advice exactly what I was looking for! Thanks so much!

 

[Maiden69]

The same technique that Jonas use on colander JBP is the same technique used for ground growing... you let a sacrifice run for a few years, once it reaches the thickening you want, cut back to a new leader that will be your next portion of the trunk. Once that one reaches the thickness desired, cut again to a new leader. Jonas also advises using branch sacrifice "branches". He let them elongate to the thickness he wants, then cut back. On one of this posts, he points out around 4 or 5 places where he will cut back, and in the order he will do so.

If you are a member of Mirai, Ryan has a series of 4 to 6 videos on the final development of a Telperion JBP. He explains the method used by Chris and Gary and the steps he will take to thicken the new branches on the tree. Pretty much the same steps used in the field. The advise that @KiwiPlantGuy gave above is almost identical to the process explained by Chris on the Mirai podcast.

I would also recommend what was mentioned above about moving the sacrifice branches slightly away from the tree in the opposite direction of the sun, that will prevent the lower branches that you want to keep from being shaded and weakened.

 

[GGB]

Oh yeah, this guys channel is awesome. His nursery only grows pine, mostly black. He has tons of videos on field growing. Have to watch with captions but Japanese to English translations are easy to understand, at least compared to the Chinese translations .

 

[Mash]

Here is what I have been doing. I take an animal feed bin and drill big holes around the sides at the bottom. It allows roots to escape and grow bigger. I cut them each when I work the trees. I also drill small holes in the bottom. I them place them in the ground. I get allot more growth than a tree in the bench in a pot. I follow the grow thick sacrifice material and cut it off. Let's me grow the roots in good bonsai soil and work the main root base every couple of years. Here are some old pictures.

 

[Maiden69]

Oh yeah, this guys channel is awesome. His nursery only grows pine, mostly black. He has tons of videos on field growing. Have to watch with captions but Japanese to English translations are easy to understand, at least compared to the Chinese translations .

I just watched a few of his videos... holly crap this guy is merciless when it comes to trimming the pines in the ground. I can't say anything bad from the look at the trees from his field, but wow... he's basically "hedge" pruning them in the video below. Cutting candles straight through from side to side, needles and all, not the delicate approach that almost everybody advise to use.

 

[MagicMike]

The same technique that Jonas use on colander JBP is the same technique used for ground growing... you let a sacrifice run for a few years, once it reaches the thickening you want, cut back to a new leader that will be your next portion of the trunk. Once that one reaches the thickness desired, cut again to a new leader. Jonas also advises using branch sacrifice "branches". He let them elongate to the thickness he wants, then cut back. On one of this posts, he points out around 4 or 5 places where he will cut back, and in the order he will do so.

If you are a member of Mirai, Ryan has a series of 4 to 6 videos on the final development of a Telperion JBP. He explains the method used by Chris and Gary and the steps he will take to thicken the new branches on the tree. Pretty much the same steps used in the field. The advise that @KiwiPlantGuy gave above is almost identical to the process explained by Chris on the Mirai podcast.

I would also recommend what was mentioned above about moving the sacrifice branches slightly away from the tree in the opposite direction of the sun, that will prevent the lower branches that you want to keep from being shaded and weakened.

When should you cut the branches and chop the leader? I've been told in winter if that is correct when in winter beginning, middle, or end?

 

[Tele]

I just watched a few of his videos... holly crap this guy is merciless when it comes to trimming the pines in the ground. I can't say anything bad from the look at the trees from his field, but wow... he's basically "hedge" pruning them in the video below. Cutting candles straight through from side to side, needles and all, not the delicate approach that almost everybody advise to use.

He does treat them differently based on the type of pine. I think it is skill.

 

[HankDio]

I just watched a few of his videos... holly crap this guy is merciless when it comes to trimming the pines in the ground. I can't say anything bad from the look at the trees from his field, but wow... he's basically "hedge" pruning them in the video below. Cutting candles straight through from side to side, needles and all, not the delicate approach that almost everybody advise to use.

When your pines are essentially artisan crops, you gotta be efficient.

 

[GGB]

@Maiden69 his family has been doing it for generations. He knows that a tree in the ground can be worked that way and babied later in a pot.