Feel free to share your design opinions on this Shishigashira!
- Thread starter Jphipps
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Good purchase! Just some thoughts.
One thing to look at is cutbacks on all branches to create more taper as the thick growth was let run too much.
Also there appears to be a very thick branch coming out of the first branch (first photo) on the right that likely needs to be cut off.
Finally the sacrifice on top should be cut back (leaving a nub to die back) all the way to reduce the triple junction now to alleviate reverse taper forming.
Next year the tree might go in a grow box.
Anyways just my opinion
cheers
DSD sends
One thing to look at is cutbacks on all branches to create more taper as the thick growth was let run too much.
Also there appears to be a very thick branch coming out of the first branch (first photo) on the right that likely needs to be cut off.
Finally the sacrifice on top should be cut back (leaving a nub to die back) all the way to reduce the triple junction now to alleviate reverse taper forming.
Next year the tree might go in a grow box.
Anyways just my opinion
cheers
DSD sends
Jphipps
Mame
Thanks for the feedback. I'm torn about doing a heavier cutback but I do wonder if it will create a better tree with improved taper. The trunk isn't super thick compared to the size of the branches.
Can you clarify the very thick branch at the first branch? If you mean the whirl of branches coming out of the end of the first branch, I did reduce that to a division of 2, so I need to update the photo to reflect that. I don't like how dead straight the first part of the first branch is.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Congratulations on choosing a very natural looking Japanese maple. Please do not be tempted to design horizontal branching just because that's what bonsai look like. Japanese maple natural growth habit is multiple ascending branches that then turn outward to form branch pads. This tree already has the ascending main branches so just a matter of forming the tips.
Always really hard to give meaningful advice with only 2D photos to work on.
Initially I thought the first phot gave a great view but after cross referencing with the second side view it appears the trunk comes forward initially and the best replacement apex grows toward the back so not such a great front IMHO.
Maybe the other side )opposite first view) might give better options?
Being commercially grown JM you'll almost certainly have to chop some branches short and regrow them to get better structure, taper and ramification.
You probably already have some ideas so please mark up a virt for opinions.
Always really hard to give meaningful advice with only 2D photos to work on.
Initially I thought the first phot gave a great view but after cross referencing with the second side view it appears the trunk comes forward initially and the best replacement apex grows toward the back so not such a great front IMHO.
Maybe the other side )opposite first view) might give better options?
Being commercially grown JM you'll almost certainly have to chop some branches short and regrow them to get better structure, taper and ramification.
You probably already have some ideas so please mark up a virt for opinions.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
@Shibui ’s point about 2D images vs reality is spot on. So take design advice with a grain of salt. It’s best to take images all around a tree or better still, post a video clip while rotating the tree slowly.
That said, it seems to me there’s always a conflict of competing ‘goods’ when one assesses a tree…. Grow out vs cutback is the first I always seem to face. Yet taper seems to trump most anything else, except health, with nebari a really close second…. especially with Japanese Maples where silhouette is very important.
See area circled. Again it just may be the image and a shortening could work.
As always, it’s your tree and your choice.
cheers
DSD sends
River's Edge
Masterpiece
1.When I look at a maple I first consider the best base and nebari.
Nebari is not visible but the best base is in the first picture I believe.
2. I then give consideration to trunk line, Looking for best movement and direction from viewer.
In this case I prefer the movement on the left picture as well even though the tree is moving away from the viewer in the middle of the design.
3. I then look at the internode length and thickness of branching for placement in the design. In this case the internode length becomes longer and thicker in the upper portion of the design than will give a balanced picture. keeping in mind that trunk should taper, branches should taper and internodes should grow shorter as one progresses up the tree.
4. This is good material to work with and can be developed very nicely in a relatively short period of time. 5-10 years.
5. That being said, the key will be to cut back some overly thick branches, remove some branches and introduce some taper and movement to the upper 1/3 of the design.
6. Working simply on the smaller branching with the current foundation will not improve the tree very much in my opinion!
Bonsai is by definition an artistic endeavor, therefore principles of aesthetics are important, not just what is a natural growth pattern in maples.
7. I would choose either a short powerful tree or bigger design with this material . If the short powerful version than I would airliner off two or three portions to develop later. Design branching would one from thread grafting, allowing one to pick points and angles for branching, control internode and taper as well.
8. I marked the starting point for these two options and branches I would remove. Forgot to mark the bottom left branch, it needs shortening or replacement.
9. In both cases the new apex would be from new shoots selected to add movement and comes towards the viewer when developed.
Now you have a range of opinions to consider
I know this is brief and without a lot of detail. so questions are welcome.
Nebari is not visible but the best base is in the first picture I believe.
2. I then give consideration to trunk line, Looking for best movement and direction from viewer.
In this case I prefer the movement on the left picture as well even though the tree is moving away from the viewer in the middle of the design.
3. I then look at the internode length and thickness of branching for placement in the design. In this case the internode length becomes longer and thicker in the upper portion of the design than will give a balanced picture. keeping in mind that trunk should taper, branches should taper and internodes should grow shorter as one progresses up the tree.
4. This is good material to work with and can be developed very nicely in a relatively short period of time. 5-10 years.
5. That being said, the key will be to cut back some overly thick branches, remove some branches and introduce some taper and movement to the upper 1/3 of the design.
6. Working simply on the smaller branching with the current foundation will not improve the tree very much in my opinion!
Bonsai is by definition an artistic endeavor, therefore principles of aesthetics are important, not just what is a natural growth pattern in maples.
7. I would choose either a short powerful tree or bigger design with this material . If the short powerful version than I would airliner off two or three portions to develop later. Design branching would one from thread grafting, allowing one to pick points and angles for branching, control internode and taper as well.
8. I marked the starting point for these two options and branches I would remove. Forgot to mark the bottom left branch, it needs shortening or replacement.
9. In both cases the new apex would be from new shoots selected to add movement and comes towards the viewer when developed.
Now you have a range of opinions to consider
I know this is brief and without a lot of detail. so questions are welcome.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Nice write up Frank! Very comprehensive list out of some options. Especially like how you laid out your thought process when looking at a maple.
Cheers
DSD sends
Cheers
DSD sends
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
My initial removals would be as such marked in red. This should create plenty of backbudding for better decision options two or three years down the road.
That is, if you are happy with trunk and nebari. Were this my tree, I would cut where shown, wait a year or two for long term development options then possibly repot then into something shallower for grow out.
That is, if you are happy with trunk and nebari. Were this my tree, I would cut where shown, wait a year or two for long term development options then possibly repot then into something shallower for grow out.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
An even more drastic reduction option:
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Yes, the short powerful tree with options to grow out taper and movement over time.
Jphipps
Mame
Really great observations/opinions so far, so thank you. It's always nice to get different perspectives. This is already opening up new ways to look at the tree. Even though it's 2D, I would say everyone is pretty accurate as to new ideas and identifying the flaws I see in person.
Cruiser
Chumono
Nice material. Good node placement and branch options. It could be shaped and grown to look like a big-leaf maple. Washington-style.
I’d also cut to reduce straight sections, create better proportion, and reduce some branch junctions to 2.
Keep lower branch as sacrifice, then eventually turn it into an uro.
Davidlpf
Chumono
I wouldn't prune it at all, I'll do some arilayers next spring instead.
I did some airlayers in mine last spring, and the backbudding after the cut was amazing (you can see how i did it, and the result in this youtube playlist) So don`t waste that branches, even if they are small and straigth, you could do a nice forest with them.
Congratulations, you have a nice tree and a lot of fun ahead!
Cheers.
P.S. For more information about airlayering, I recommend to see this another video click,click. Just in case you have any doubts!
I did some airlayers in mine last spring, and the backbudding after the cut was amazing (you can see how i did it, and the result in this youtube playlist) So don`t waste that branches, even if they are small and straigth, you could do a nice forest with them.
Congratulations, you have a nice tree and a lot of fun ahead!
Cheers.
P.S. For more information about airlayering, I recommend to see this another video click,click. Just in case you have any doubts!
Last edited:
clem
Chumono
good idea to air layer the useless branches.
a possible trunk line without the branches, let the scars close, keep the apex to produce some long branches to graft later. I dunno if this cultivar can grow generously or not so maybe my idea of grafting isn't a good idea on this cultivar (too long to produce new long branches to graft)
shorter trunk ->
a possible trunk line without the branches, let the scars close, keep the apex to produce some long branches to graft later. I dunno if this cultivar can grow generously or not so maybe my idea of grafting isn't a good idea on this cultivar (too long to produce new long branches to graft)
shorter trunk ->
D
Deleted member 47471
Guest
Tidal Bonsai
Omono
Ditto
GGB
Masterpiece
I guess I’m the only one but I would prune very little on that tree. I love how naturalistic it is. That is what I’m trying to create with the trees I grow from scratch. Obviously super long straight sections should get cut back but I’d be doing the bare minimum to the tree. It’s simply a matter of taste though. It’s not wrong to cut it back and regrow the branches in the “correct” areas. Very jealous of this tree
Jphipps
Mame
Really great feedback so far. I guess I'm still torn with this tree. Part of me wants to leave most of what is there to maintain some of the natural "wildness" that has already grown. A different part of me sees what many have mentioned about cutting off a lot of the secondary branches as they seem too thick. I would lean going this route to have much better taper (and possibly better tree) in the future but obviously it would really slow down the development process. Especially with such a super slow growing cultivar.
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
Damn that’s a sexy forestI wouldn't prune it at all, I'll do some arilayers next spring instead.
View attachment 521330
I did some airlayers in mine last spring, and the backbudding after the cut was amazing (you can see how i did it, and the result in this youtube playlist) So don`t waste that branches, even if they are small and straigth, you could do a nice forest with them.
View attachment 521329
Congratulations, you have a nice tree and a lot of fun ahead!
Cheers.
P.S. For more information about airlayering, I recommend to see this another video click,click. Just in case you have any doubts!
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