Explaining origin of bonsai advice

[DrTolhur]

As far as I've discerned in my 2-3 years of bonsai experience, there seems to be several different origins of bonsai advice given: horticultural/functional, aesthetic, tradition/philosophy. The problem is that I don't usually see people expressing which of those origins they're harkening to when giving advice, at least if it's the latter two. It's all just stated on equal footing, which isn't very helpful, especially for beginners. The reason I say that is that, if one so chooses, the second two categories of advice can be completely ignored if it doesn't suit your preferences. It doesn't make it bad advice, just relative; whereas horticultural/functional advice is absolute and ought to be followed regardless of your preferences. Here are some examples:

"Only perform one large offense in a year (e.g. trunk chop, repot, defoliation, etc.)." Horticultural

"Double wires should be tight to each other." Aesthetic

(I can't think of any tradition/philosophy off the top of my head.)

I don't say this to say that people shouldn't share non-functional advice, just that it should be specified that it's non-functional and up to one's preference. When advice is all presented the same (as absolute), it can be unclear to the uninitiated if it's function, aesthetics, or tradition guiding it. If you like a rugged pine tree in a round blue glazed pot, go for it. If you like crossing roots and branches, have fun. Other people may not appreciate those choices, but each person should first and foremost do what they like with their trees. Not everyone has a desire to even show their trees to others, much less enter a show.

 

[Paradox]

I would argue that double wires should be applied next to each other is more of a technical/functional issue than an aesthetic one. The wires support each other and provide greater bending power than a single wire alone. They do that much better from a physics standpoint if they are close together.

 

[sorce]

I believe if you are not considering both horticulture and design with every move, you are not moving correctly.

It should be applied to every piece of advice, every thought, every action.

They are married.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I don't really get the gripe here. Sure you can "do what you want," but the results may/may not suck--mostly suck when compared to trees grown with some established shared techniques/esthetics involved.

It takes time to sort out what works and what doesn't esthetically. Make a tree now and you will remake it five years from now muttering "WTF was I thinking." Taste changes with experience and seeing ACTUAL bonsai in person (Shows, exhibits, other people's backyards, clubs etc.). Two years isn't enough time to really understand what's going on with some of the intricacies of esthetics of bonsai. Hell, 20 years isn't either, but at least you get more of the nuances.

 

[rockm]

Here is a new blog post that delves into the background of bonsai and esthetics. If you want to understand the background of bonsai, look to the tea ceremony.

Bonsai Display pt. I

an overview of chinretsu-kai and kazari display.by Peter Warren Bonsai display is fundamentally the act of taking a bonsai out of the garden and appreciating it as an artistic object in a way that allows the viewer to focus on the tree. The display provides an opportunity to interact with the...

bonsaimirai.com

 

[bbk]

I have to say… that the word “esthetics” is probably the most ugly bastardisation of the English language I have seen come out of America.

 

[DanaWhicker]

I have to say… that the word “esthetics” is probably the most ugly bastardisation of the English language I have seen come out of America.

Ironic as well would you say?

 

[rockm]

I have to say… that the word “esthetics” is probably the most ugly bastardisation of the English language I have seen come out of America.

I have to say it's sometimes very apparent why we threw the Brits out of here long ago...

 

[Michael P]

The distinctions that DrTolhur makes are valid. The horticultural techniques in bonsai cannot be ignored on a whim. It is not possible to create bonsai with a dead tree. That said, we often push the horticultural envelop in pursuit of aesthetic goals.

Conventional aesthetics and tradition can be ignored. The result may be ugly to almost everyone or it may be genius. It is important for beginners to know what kind of advice they are being given. This is the same for all art forms. Artists must understand the physical characteristics of their media. Living things are much more sensitive than inanimate materials, but even a beautiful stone sculpture is a failure if the artist exceeds the physical strength of the stone and the sculpture collapses.

Revolutions in art often start when someone decides to ignore tradition and conventional aesthetics. Picasso and the other cubists shocked the aesthetic standards of their time, but they did know how to paint. If the paint had peeled off the canvas after Guernica was finished we would not have the painting to argue about today.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I view bonsai development as holistic and there are often times no distinction between the various "sources". Everything we do is directed at a single goal - formation of a bonsai - and we need to employ many tactics to get there.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Yours is a common thought, but I always bristle at the insinuation that people are saying certain things just to show that they're part of an in-group cult that chants the rules together in an underground lair and they love to come on the Internet and display their membership with obscure rules that can actually be ignored in practice.

In my 8ish years doing this, I've never come across someone who isn't genuinely trying to help.

 

[bonsaichile]

Read up on bonsai esthetics and horticulture. As someone mentioned, try to see as many bonsai in person as you can. It is not always possible to separate the technical from the eathetic. Tradition grew out of centuries worth of masters trying techniques. You will learn to separate them eventually, but you will also realize many times the distinction is meaningless

 

[DrTolhur]

Yours is a common thought, but I always bristle at the insinuation that people are saying certain things just to show that they're part of an in-group cult that chants the rules together in an underground lair and they love to come on the Internet and display their membership with obscure rules that can actually be ignored in practice.

In my 8ish years doing this, I've never come across someone who isn't genuinely trying to help.

I'm not sure I follow. Your post sounds like some kind of disagreement, but you've not said anything I disagree with. I never said people weren't trying to help, just that it's more helpful to understand the reasoning behind the advice and which category it falls into...even if more than one.

It seems to me that some people here have misunderstood my intention. (Michael P gets it.) There are some pieces of advice that are clearly aesthetic and have nothing to do with the health/physiology of the tree. There are some things that are purely horticultural and don't play a direct role in the appearance as a bonsai. And there are certainly many ideas/principles that overlap between them. My point is that everyone wants a healthy tree, but not everyone is going for the same aesthetics. This isn't a sport with official rules, so it's useful to know which information being presented actually is a rule (i.e. horticultural principle) and which is just about the artistic side or emotional side. Yes, bonsai is a rich, formal art with long history, but not everyone needs to care about that. Maybe someone just wants to create a tree that they like and don't give a crap about the history, tradition, or typical aesthetics of bonsai as an art. That's fine, they can do that, and we should help them get the information they personally want and need for their goals. Heck, they can even call it "bahnz-eye."

As with any hobby, people have differing levels of interest and seriousness in bonsai, but it doesn't always seem like that's allowed in these forums. There's all kinds of dogma thrown out with expectations that everyone has similar goals like making a mature-looking tree or a realistic-looking tree or a show-worthy tree or anything else; but that's just not the case. There's no such thing as a "real" bonsai vs. stick-in-a-pot.

I guess the main point here is this: if you give advice that is not directly related to the health of the tree, please indicate that.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I have to say… that the word “esthetics” is probably the most ugly bastardisation of the English language I have seen come out of America.

This is confusing? Can you explain more?

I thought Aesthetic was a CLEARLY greek-rooted word, or it reads as such (if your "decent" at English proficiency)

I looked it up and it turns out I am correct.

It is derived from "aisthetikos'...

The word you just typed, is not a word, but a typo, most undoubtedly. We use the word "Aesthetics"..derived (to the English language SOME time ago) from the Greek, "aisthetikos'".

What is the UN-bastardized version of the word "aesthetics"?... I love language and it's study. Dually, I am always up to learn something new.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I have to say it's sometimes very apparent why we threw the Brits out of here long ago...

Hehe!

Like kicking a hitchhiker out of a stolen car!

 

[_#1_]

Maybe someone just wants to create a tree that they like and don't give a crap about the history, tradition, or typical aesthetics of bonsai as an art. That's fine, they can do that, and we should help them get the information they personally want and need for their goals. Heck, they can even call it "bahnz-eye."

Then those people do not need any help from the bonsai community. They only need to know the horticultural need of said plant/tree which can be Googled or YouTube. Keep plant/tree alive while pruning the way one see fit, no?

There's all kinds of dogma thrown out with expectations that everyone has similar goals like making a mature-looking tree or a realistic-looking tree or a show-worthy tree or anything else; but that's just not the case. There's no such thing as a "real" bonsai vs. stick-in-a-pot.

One must define what is Bonsai?

 

[BobbyLane]

I agree somehwhat, and I see it a lot where someone posts up a tree and sometimes the material can have more than one clear option and way to go. of course usually the poster doesnt know or divulge what style they like or are thinking of. often they'll get good styling advice, but only for the style that whosoever is answering 'likes' and the answer wont usually contain any other options even when there is clearly more ways to go. so while the poster might be learning good technique they arent really learning about different styles. or being taught how to envision other ideas or options.

 

[BobbyLane]

As far as I've discerned in my 2-3 years of bonsai experience, there seems to be several different origins of bonsai advice given: horticultural/functional, aesthetic, tradition/philosophy. The problem is that I don't usually see people expressing which of those origins they're harkening to when giving advice, at least if it's the latter two. It's all just stated on equal footing, which isn't very helpful, especially for beginners. The reason I say that is that, if one so chooses, the second two categories of advice can be completely ignored if it doesn't suit your preferences. It doesn't make it bad advice, just relative; whereas horticultural/functional advice is absolute and ought to be followed regardless of your preferences. Here are some examples:

"Only perform one large offense in a year (e.g. trunk chop, repot, defoliation, etc.)." Horticultural

"Double wires should be tight to each other." Aesthetic

(I can't think of any tradition/philosophy off the top of my head.)

I don't say this to say that people shouldn't share non-functional advice, just that it should be specified that it's non-functional and up to one's preference. When advice is all presented the same (as absolute), it can be unclear to the uninitiated if it's function, aesthetics, or tradition guiding it. If you like a rugged pine tree in a round blue glazed pot, go for it. If you like crossing roots and branches, have fun. Other people may not appreciate those choices, but each person should first and foremost do what they like with their trees. Not everyone has a desire to even show their trees to others, much less enter a show.

The trouble is, most asking for advice dont really have an idea of what they really like, for example you rarely see anyone asking for styling advice and attaching lets say an image of a wild tree or a good bonsai. he could post up a raw stump and while it could be suited to a naturalistic style, the advice will mostly be seal all wounds, grow one leader, close all wounds, leave it in a box for x amount of years or it will never be a good bonsai because there's too many chops or whatever. Im sure you understand. when actually it might be benificial to first find out what the OP likes and what the material can be suited to.......

 

[Paradox]

As with any hobby, people have differing levels of interest and seriousness in bonsai, but it doesn't always seem like that's allowed in these forums. There's all kinds of dogma thrown out with expectations that everyone has similar goals like making a mature-looking tree or a realistic-looking tree or a show-worthy tree or anything else; but that's just not the case.

I whole heartedly disagree. Yes there are people here that are very advanced in the hobby and passionate about showing trees and pushing them to the highest level.

We also have a lot of people uninterested in that and just want to enjoy trees in their back yard. Others just want to grow trees from seed or cuttings. I've rarely if ever seen someone admonished for any of that.

Yes the advanced folks will give advice based on their knowledge of traditional techniques because that is what they have learned and it works.

They also give advice because they have already been there and done that with newbie mistakes and want to help others avoid those mistakes and lessen the learning curve no matter what their ambitions are or arent.

It's up to the recipient of such advice to take it or leave it. It's always said "This is what i would do if it were my trees but it's your tree, your decision". No one expects anyone to strive to show trees or pursue the hobby to the highest level if they don't want to.

I guess the main point here is this: if you give advice that is not directly related to the health of the tree, please indicate that.

This isnt going to happen. If you cant figure this out for yourself then I don't know what to tell you except perhaps that you've got more to learn.

 

[bbk]

This is confusing? Can you explain more?

I thought Aesthetic was a CLEARLY greek-rooted word, or it reads as such (if your "decent" at English proficiency)

I looked it up and it turns out I am correct.

It is derived from "aisthetikos'...

The word you just typed, is not a word, but a typo, most undoubtedly. We use the word "Aesthetics"..derived (to the English language SOME time ago) from the Greek, "aisthetikos'".

What is the UN-bastardized version of the word "aesthetics"?... I love language and it's study. Dually, I am always up to learn something new.

Ha.

Well that is good to know.

I thought it was a typo originally but not being a natural looked it up, and it was coming up as the “American” spelling as aesthetics.

Here it was hurt my eyes. So my post was merely a tongue in cheek jibe that “esthetics” wasn’t very aesthetic.

Some might say a difference between Australian and American sense of humour, but I am aware I have quite a different sense of humour to most no matter where they are from.