Englemann & Colorado Blue Spruce Cold Reqs

[kalare]

I'm looking at acquiring these two species, however I live in the Bay Area, zone 10a. We get an occasional frost (a couple nights a year) and it'll dip into the 30's at night for a month or so, but temp always goes up to high 40's low 50's during the day.

Anyone have any experience with these species in this type of climate, or even better yet, in the Bay Area, CA?

Thanks!

 

[plant_dr]

I found this article about growing Colorado Blue Spruce in Florida. Roughly similar heat zone to yours, (at least in terms of growing these cool climate trees). The honest truth of it is that it just doesn't stay cold enough long enough in the winter and it stays too hot for too long in the summer in areas like yours to keep those trees happy. https://www.hunker.com/13427847/can-i-grow-a-blue-spruce-tree-in-florida

 

[Bavarian Raven]

What Plant said. I have both of these species and they need a good two months of "winter" min. to be happy and healthy.

 

[A. Gorilla]

I'm sorry, but the bay area is not entitled to everything. You can't just have ideal weather and then want spruces too.

::.hovering over my cold-loving species like mother hen...looking over my shoulder and hissing:::

 

[sorce]

@Adair M @markyscott

Boon is in the Bay Area and its always better to know than to guess!

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

I don’t recall ever having seen either in Boon’s garden. Blue and Green Atlas Cedar do great, though.

S

 

[sorce]

Blue and Green Atlas Cedar

And IMO....more beautiful!

Sorce

 

[kalare]

But...I want my perfect weather and all my plants too?

Ha, thanks all for the input, it was what I expected. We don't have hot summers here though, it rarely gets to 80, and only 1-2 months out of the year the temps will get to mid 70's and dip back to 50-60 at night during the summer. There are a couple of nurseries that carry then around here, but they may be different varieties than the yamadori out of the wild...so not sure. Maybe I'll have to find a ugly cheap one to try for a couple years.

Already got several blue atlas cedar...maybe have to pick up a green! Blue atlas is one of my favorites for sure though.

Would you say Ezo spruce is the same? I know they keep those at the Bonsai Garden at Lake Merritt.

 

[GGB]

You can always practice zonal denial, like that awesome pinetum in that one cold state... Ezo spruce are rated zone 2-7 I think. And if you aren't seeing spruce anywhere there could be a reason. BUT you could just try with some discounted plants an see. Lovett!! that's the name of the pinetum! they grow whatever pine tree they find interesting in their zone 6 climate, some die after a couple years, some die instantly, and sometimes.. a zone 7 or 8 pine just cruises right along like it's in it's "correct" zone. don't know til ya try, just don't spend to much money and give it a few years before you declare it a success

 

[GGB]

Also, if I'm nervous (I worry about things surviving my winter, like the pinetum does) I'll source some seeds from the most northern seller I can find, so those bastards know what to expect from day one. Probably has zero impact on whether or not the tree lives BUT if out of 200 sprouts 3 survive your winter/lack of winter you'll be working with the most promising individual plants by default

 

[Bavarian Raven]

And IMO....more beautiful!

Sorce

Blasphemy!
Englemann soruce is far better than either of those two combined. Close to mountain hemlock imho.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you must have spruce, something from genus Picea, try Picea rubens - Red spruce - it is a relatively low elevation spruce, native to the Appalachian Mountains, its native range extends into North Carolina. It will likely have a lower chill requirement than Engleman and Colorado spruce, which are both high elevation plants. I don't know for a fact, it is my ''internet knowledge'' based guess, not from real world experience. Similarly, Picea glauca, the white spruce, is another low elevation spruce. The species includes the dwarf Alberta spruce, but I recommend testing one of the ''normal'' cultivars. The normal wild form of Picea glauca has better growth pattern for bonsai than the Dwarf Alberta Spruce. Again, not from actual experience, as I live in zone 5, I don't have any trouble meeting chill requirements, I can grow pretty much any spruce. But we are too damn cold in winter for Cedrus, and for JBP. Here JBP wintered outdoors, might survive one or two years, but sometime in a 5 year span will get frozen dead.

So experiment with Picea rubens and Picea glauca

 

[kalare]

So, local nursery had a sale on some trees in the back...and I came home with a Picea pungens glauca christmas tree. It was pretty cheap, and they say they do well here...so we shall see. Looking inside it has some potential and a chubby 3" trunk with a decent spreading base. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[miker]

Yeah, Colorado blue spruce (and certainly englemann spruce) does not have a chance at surviving more than a couple years in FL. Not (even remotely close to) enough chill hours, even in the panhandle. I think a Colorado blue spruce could limp along for 3-4 years in the Bay Area, but that is certainly not good enough for what you want, so the answer to the question is, no.

I have read a few reports of some success with Colorado blue spruce in Northern Georgia and the northern half of Alabama, so that would correspond with zone 7b, or 8a at the very warmest (but that is in the east). I am sure there are some climates in the west in zone 8 and maybe even 9a that get enough chill hours (hours with a temperature below 45F) that it might work.

 

[0soyoung]

I'm in 8b. So is Seattle and so is Portland OR. Both spruces being discussed do just fine in these climes. Most of this area, west of the Cascades is native Douglas fir forest, so we also know that hours below 40F are more than 1,700 even though it doesn't get 'all that cold' in winter.

Portland often experiences a day or two 100F temperatures, but on average only one day a year above 86F, My area, including Seattle is likewise an AHS heat zone 1. San Franciso and the 'semiconductor valley' (San Jose area) are also, but there might not be enough bud chilling hours in the winter.

 

[kalare]

It's interesting you mention douglas fir, as I was just thinking to myself "I know doug fir lives here just fine" as there are several large doug fir/redwood forests right around where I live. Are these spruces more demanding of cold than doug fir, typically?

 

[0soyoung]

It's interesting you mention douglas fir, as I was just thinking to myself "I know doug fir lives here just fine" as there are several large doug fir/redwood forests right around where I live. Are these spruces more demanding of cold than doug fir, typically?

It might be less, for all I know.

I just know that there are 80 ft Douglas firs right across the street from my house. Fidalgo Island is covered with them. They are 'indigenous' thoughout Washington and Oregon in and west of the Cascade Mountains. Engleman and Colorado spruce do well in these areas. Ryan Neil and Michael Haggedorn have them. Seattle area bonsai people have them. The Pacific Bonsai Museum has both species - the museum diplays are shaded by 80 to 100 foot tall Douglas firs on the grounds.

I also know that Douglas fir will not survive near Monterrey because it was the site of a disastrous Douglas fir plantation back in the 1960's. It was intended for genetic research, but Waerhauser's only finding was that they got no bud break and all the trees died two years after planting. It all motivated a little lab work that later revealed the 1700 hour minimum chilling requirement for Douglas fir.

Sorry. I would like to be more definitive but I lack data.