Effects of Fertilizer vs Compost vs Raw Manure?

[ShadyStump]

I haven't had any luck finding resources here on the sciences (chemistry and biology) behind how trees process nutrients, but have a basic comprehension of how to use what where and when as far as gardening goes.
Things like raw manure will generally "burn" a plant, but some species can handle it; till it into the soil in fall/winter and you get a much smoother mix by spring planting while retaining some of the higher nutrient levels. Compost is safest, but is practically just replacement soil for the used up soil. Fertilizer is like a steroid shot; it channels the nutrients straight into the plant, for better or worse results.

But I don't know how it ACTUALLY works, or how to apply it to bonsai in a detailed strategic manner outside of examples and advice for your substrate mix at repotting time and fertilizing regimens.

Example of an application of the sort of info I'm looking for: I have a pinus edulus two needle piñon pine in a giant 4 gallon pot. It's the first one that hasn't died on me over the years, only it's looking very pale, literally. At first I thought it might be over watered because of its position near a lawn sprinkler, but the substrate is well draining, and it was moved over a month ago but has not shown any better signs. I'm thinking it might be nutrient deprived now, but don't want to use chemical ferts because of kids, new puppy, other plants catching the runoff, etc., and I'm worried it might be too weak at this point.
So what's the best course of action to introduce more nutrients, and most importantly, WHY?

I guess I'm looking for a tree nutrition resource on par with MarkyScott's soil physics.

 

[Eckhoffw]

I haven't had any luck finding resources here on the sciences (chemistry and biology) behind how trees process nutrients, but have a basic comprehension of how to use what where and when as far as gardening goes.
Things like raw manure will generally "burn" a plant, but some species can handle it; till it into the soil in fall/winter and you get a much smoother mix by spring planting while retaining some of the higher nutrient levels. Compost is safest, but is practically just replacement soil for the used up soil. Fertilizer is like a steroid shot; it channels the nutrients straight into the plant, for better or worse results.

But I don't know how it ACTUALLY works, or how to apply it to bonsai in a detailed strategic manner outside of examples and advice for your substrate mix at repotting time and fertilizing regimens.

Example of an application of the sort of info I'm looking for: I have a pinus edulus two needle piñon pine in a giant 4 gallon pot. It's the first one that hasn't died on me over the years, only it's looking very pale, literally. At first I thought it might be over watered because of its position near a lawn sprinkler, but the substrate is well draining, and it was moved over a month ago but has not shown any better signs. I'm thinking it might be nutrient deprived now, but don't want to use chemical ferts because of kids, new puppy, other plants catching the runoff, etc., and I'm worried it might be too weak at this point.
So what's the best course of action to introduce more nutrients, and most importantly, WHY?

I guess I'm looking for a tree nutrition resource on par with MarkyScott's soil physics.

I have many of the same questions. Thanks for asking! I wish I had some knowledge to share.

 

[Paradox]

I haven't had any luck finding resources here on the sciences (chemistry and biology) behind how trees process nutrients, but have a basic comprehension of how to use what where and when as far as gardening goes.
Things like raw manure will generally "burn" a plant, but some species can handle it; till it into the soil in fall/winter and you get a much smoother mix by spring planting while retaining some of the higher nutrient levels. Compost is safest, but is practically just replacement soil for the used up soil. Fertilizer is like a steroid shot; it channels the nutrients straight into the plant, for better or worse results.

But I don't know how it ACTUALLY works, or how to apply it to bonsai in a detailed strategic manner outside of examples and advice for your substrate mix at repotting time and fertilizing regimens.

Example of an application of the sort of info I'm looking for: I have a pinus edulus two needle piñon pine in a giant 4 gallon pot. It's the first one that hasn't died on me over the years, only it's looking very pale, literally. At first I thought it might be over watered because of its position near a lawn sprinkler, but the substrate is well draining, and it was moved over a month ago but has not shown any better signs. I'm thinking it might be nutrient deprived now, but don't want to use chemical ferts because of kids, new puppy, other plants catching the runoff, etc., and I'm worried it might be too weak at this point.
So what's the best course of action to introduce more nutrients, and most importantly, WHY?

I guess I'm looking for a tree nutrition resource on par with MarkyScott's soil physics.

There is no need to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

You already partly answered your own question.
Raw manure is too fresh and "hot". It needs to be aged, or composted. Do you have the space to compost a pile of cow crap for 3 months and the equipment to turn (stir) that pile over every few days?

Compost is decomposed organic matter used to freshen organic based soil but depending on what it is it may or may not be "fertilizer"

Keep it simple, just pick and use a commercial fertilizer. The only thing is it has been recommended to me to use something like miracid on acid loving plants like azaleas and use regular fertilizer on others.

You can get organic based fertilizer like fish emulsion. You can also make fertilizer cakes out of plantone or other organic ingredients to put on the soil of your trees but beware, the dog might eat them if he can reach them.

As to the 'why'.
We put trees in highly inorganic soil which has little to no nutrients. We do this so that we can control how the tree grows by how and when we fertilize. If you don't fertilize a tree in highly inorganic soil, it can survive but it will not thrive.
We need it to thrive if we are going to reliably bonsai it. Also as the tree develops, we change how we fertilize to control its growth.

You make a weak tree stronger by fertilizing it.

 

[ShadyStump]

There is no need to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

You already partly answered your own question.
Raw manure is too fresh and "hot". It needs to be aged, or composted. Do you have the space to compost a pile of cow crap for 3 months and the equipment to turn (stir) that pile over every few days?

Compost is decomposed organic matter used to freshen organic based soil but depending on what it is it may or may not be "fertilizer"

Keep it simple, just pick and use a commercial fertilizer. The only thing is it has been recommended to me to use something like miracid on acid loving plants like azaleas and use regular fertilizer on others.

You can get organic based fertilizer like fish emulsion. You can also make fertilizer cakes out of plantone or other organic ingredients to put on the soil of your trees but beware, the dog might eat them if he can reach them.

As to the 'why'.
We put trees in highly inorganic soil which has little to no nutrients. We do this so that we can control how the tree grows by how and when we fertilize. If you don't fertilize a tree in highly inorganic soil, it can survive but it will not thrive.
We need it to thrive if we are going to reliably bonsai it. Also as the tree develops, we change how we fertilize to control its growth.

You make a weak tree stronger by fertilizing it.

I appreciate the response.
I might have done better to use the word HOW.

I'm looking to understand the biochemistry of nutrient uptake some.
Fertilizer is readily available nutrients, but what makes that different from composted manure as far as how roots absorb it? Why does fertilizer channel straight into the plant right away while the nutrients in the compost seem to be accessed slower?

Really, I think I'm calling out the plant biologists and biochemists in the house.

 

[Paradox]

I appreciate the response.
I might have done better to use the word HOW.

I'm looking to understand the biochemistry of nutrient uptake some.
Fertilizer is readily available nutrients, but what makes that different from composted manure as far as how roots absorb it? Why does fertilizer channel straight into the plant right away while the nutrients in the compost seem to be accessed slower?

Really, I think I'm calling out the plant biologists and biochemists in the house.

Compost needs to be broken down by microbes to make the nutrients locked within it to be available for the plant to take up.
Ready made fertilizers do not. They are already in a chemical form that is readily available to be taken up by the plant.

 

[ShadyStump]

That's where I get confused I guess.
The process of composting I THOUGHT already did that, so once you have a fully composted mass, it should be a mix of inert carbon and readily available nutrients.

I suppose that in reality, though, there is usually a considerable amount of indigested matter still, leaving much of the mass still unprocessed as it were.

For lack of a definitive resource, I'm all for speculating and problem solving this by conversation.

 

[Paradox]

The nitrogen cycle

Nitrogen is the most abundant element in our planet’s atmosphere. Approximately 78% of the atmosphere is made up of nitrogen gas (N2).

www.sciencelearn.org.nz

Plant nutrition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nitrogen assimilation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zach Smith]

If we consider a tree growing in nature, no one comes along and dumps a load of ammonium nitrate around the base so the tree can get the nitrogen it needs; rather, this comes from the microbial decomposition of leaf mold and rain-borne nitrogen from the atmosphere, providing to the growing tree what it actually needs in a way it can be assimilated.

Bonsai is a hobby about a thousand years old. One must wonder how the ancient bonsai artists could keep trees alive without modern chemicals - yet remarkably they did.

Chemical fertilizers for agricultural use were introduced in the 1800s based on faulty analysis of the chemical "needs" of plants by Justus von Liebig. From his work came the entirety of modern industrial agriculture, which seeks to replenish soil depleted of natural fertility by use of mineral-based constituents that are readily absorbed by the plants, but which leave them susceptible to various pests and diseases - which are then addressed by chemical poisons. These are passed on through the food chain to us, with the expected results.

I don't grow pines so I can't advise as to how to create a natural soil best suited to their growth. I would recommend avoiding chemical fertilizers if at all possible. I am moving to a more natural approach to feeding my trees, in the hope that they will gain in health and thereby eliminate the need for fungicides and pesticides.

For what it's worth.

 

[JackHammer]

That's where I get confused I guess.
The process of composting I THOUGHT already did that, so once you have a fully composted mass, it should be a mix of inert carbon and readily available nutrients.

I suppose that in reality, though, there is usually a considerable amount of indigested matter still, leaving much of the mass still unprocessed as it were.

For lack of a definitive resource, I'm all for speculating and problem solving this by conversation.

It all turns back to humus eventually. But yes, compost is usually only part of the way there. Karl hammon (something like that) from Vermont compost has some good thinking around this. Farmer to farmer has a good podcast with him but it is a few years old.

 

[Firstflush]

Without getting too rough with your pine try this. It has all the micros, macros, natural hormones and humics a tree could need.
NPK are all mush less than 1.
Grow More Seaweed Extract.

http://growmore.com/products/type/seaweed-extract.php

May even try a handful of worm castings to get the tree healthy.

The idea is to feed the soil and the soil feeds the plants WRT food growing.

 

[JackHammer]

Do you actually have raw manure? I didn't know it was too much and tossed a bunch on my vegetables this spring. They are doing great so far!

 

[ShadyStump]

Without getting too rough with your pine try this. It has all the micros, macros, natural hormones and humics a tree could need.
NPK are all mush less than 1.
Grow More Seaweed Extract.

http://growmore.com/products/type/seaweed-extract.php

May even try a handful of worm castings to get the tree healthy.

The idea is to feed the soil and the soil feeds the plants WRT food growing.

I'll have to look into that. Seems like it might be exactly what it needs from a quick glance at the link.

 

[ShadyStump]

Do you actually have raw manure? I didn't know it was too much and tossed a bunch on my vegetables this spring. They are doing great so far!

A flock of 57 chickens and ducks, and my dad is always looking for someone to clean the horse stalls.
I'm in a city of 40k people in a rural county of 60k more farmers, ranchers and misplaced Californians and Texans. Yeah, I got raw manure.

Ohio is a much wetter climate than here, though, which might be the key difference in using raw manure on the garden.

 

[Paradox]

I have used manure in a vegetable garden but we always put it on the garden a month - 6 weeks before planting and rototilled it in.

A garden is a big difference from a pot though

 

[ShadyStump]

The nitrogen cycle

Nitrogen is the most abundant element in our planet’s atmosphere. Approximately 78% of the atmosphere is made up of nitrogen gas (N2).

www.sciencelearn.org.nz

Plant nutrition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nitrogen assimilation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks! I'll be reading up a bit I think.
Just hoped there was comprehensive resource here somewhere.

If we consider a tree growing in nature, no one comes along and dumps a load of ammonium nitrate around the base so the tree can get the nitrogen it needs; rather, this comes from the microbial decomposition of leaf mold and rain-borne nitrogen from the atmosphere, providing to the growing tree what it actually needs in a way it can be assimilated.

Bonsai is a hobby about a thousand years old. One must wonder how the ancient bonsai artists could keep trees alive without modern chemicals - yet remarkably they did.

Chemical fertilizers for agricultural use were introduced in the 1800s based on faulty analysis of the chemical "needs" of plants by Justus von Liebig. From his work came the entirety of modern industrial agriculture, which seeks to replenish soil depleted of natural fertility by use of mineral-based constituents that are readily absorbed by the plants, but which leave them susceptible to various pests and diseases - which are then addressed by chemical poisons. These are passed on through the food chain to us, with the expected results.

I don't grow pines so I can't advise as to how to create a natural soil best suited to their growth. I would recommend avoiding chemical fertilizers if at all possible. I am moving to a more natural approach to feeding my trees, in the hope that they will gain in health and thereby eliminate the need for fungicides and pesticides.

For what it's worth.

You make the exact point I continually have in mind when thinking bonsai.
Over 2,000 years of history, yet everyone seems to think the last 50 are all that matters.
Is there a book somewhere on historical bonsai practices? I need it.

 

[Paradox]

Thanks! I'll be reading up a bit I think.
Just hoped there was comprehensive resource here somewhere.

The answer to your question is fairly technical and goes into the weeds deeper than most care to. Most of us use what works because it works and don't bother as much with the nitty-gritty technical details.

So sometimes you need to do the research yourself. The info is readily available though.
Any book on plant biology will give you the answer.

 

[ShadyStump]

I have used manure in a vegetable garden but we always put it on the garden a month - 6 weeks before planting and rototilled it in.

A garden is a big difference from a pot though

I remember a spot on the front lawn at your old rental that was directly beneath a birds' nest. They would let their droppings fall in a little pile in the grass for weeks all through the warm months before leaving for winter and returning the next year.
At the center the grass had completely died, then surrounded by a ring of sickly but still alive grass, then a wider ring of grass that grew three times as fast as the rest of the lawn.

This is my conundrum. I can see what happens withe the different types of nutrients, but I don't know exactly why it works that way.

The soil physics resource is becoming more intuitive to me each day. I'd like to do the same with plant nutrition.
I do suppose I may be acting a bit impatient about it though, looking for a simple quick explanation.

 

[bwaynef]

If you want to (start to) dig deep, read _Teaming with Microbes_.

 

[Paradox]

I remember a spot on the front lawn at your old rental that was directly beneath a birds' nest. They would let their droppings fall in a little pile in the grass for weeks all through the warm months before leaving for winter and returning the next year.
At the center the grass had completely died, then surrounded by a ring of sickly but still alive grass, then a wider ring of grass that grew three times as fast as the rest of the lawn.

This is my conundrum. I can see what happens withe the different types of nutrients, but I don't know exactly why it works that way.

The soil physics resource is becoming more intuitive to me each day. I'd like to do the same with plant nutrition.
I do suppose I may be acting a bit impatient about it though, looking for a simple quick explanation.

It's not a quick simple answer.
The answer is in the links I posted but not directly


The center is where the droppings landed in concentration. The form of nitrogen in the droppings is in a form not easily used by plants and in fact burns the plants so they die

As you move out from the center, the concentration goes down as the nitrogen leaches out and is converted to more usable forms of nitrogen through decomposition by microbes and the nitrogen cycle happens.. Where you see the strong growth is where the toxic forms of nitrogen are gone and the highest concentration of usable nitrogen is so you get the most lush growth.

Similar happens when a dog urinates on the lawn just usually a bigger dead spot.

 

[JackHammer]

A flock of 57 chickens and ducks, and my dad is always looking for someone to clean the horse stalls.
I'm in a city of 40k people in a rural county of 60k more farmers, ranchers and misplaced Californians and Texans. Yeah, I got raw manure.

Ohio is a much wetter climate than here, though, which might be the key difference in using raw manure on the garden.

Ah nice. We should have a chicken thread. I have about 45 in the yard right now.
Yeah, climate could be a big difference. On my end, everything clumps together like bricks.