Doc's "recovery trees"

[ShadyStump]

Point set A:
Most of us don't live in reasonable range of anyplace where purpose grown bonsai material is available. Ordering online is always sketchy for many reasons. The additional cost of anything labeled "bonsai" is untenable for anyone on a tight budget.

Point set B:
Large stock is routinely acquired and cut back to something more manageable as common practice. Grafted stock is routinely acquired and worked with/around because of the inaccessibility of non-grafted stock. Damaged or misshapen stock is routinely acquired for the interest provided by said "faults" after refinement.

Conclusion: @dr.tenebris is doing absolutely nothing unusual or unreasonable considering his means and goals.

Expensive is a relative term, and some of us didn't have the good fortune of a birthday between 1945 and 1965. As far as I'm concerned, anything grown with bonsai in mind is expensive. I'm supposedly paid more than the median income, but between rent (a small place in a bad neighborhood), health insurance (high deductible), car insurance (the legal minimum), gas, and groceries (store brand), there's very little left over at the end of the month, and that's mostly going to my retirement account (since my social security savings are being stolen by the Boomers who cashed out their own savings in the 80's). Frankly, I have no idea how anyone earning minimum wage is alive. I don't mean that as a political statement. I mean that as a genuine question. If a "cheap" apartment is more than a thousand dollars a month in most places, how do you afford that on a $30k income? That's half your money for the year. In any case, let's not pretend it's easy to get good material for bonsai. I'm growing my own from seed, and I'm lucky enough that my parents own some swamp land where I can collect more mature trees. @dr.tenebris found a job where he gets material for free. We do the best we can with what we have.

Edit: I'm only able to earn more than the median income because I have over $100k in student loan debt. Time will tell if that was a wise investment.

Dude, I remember $30k/yr.
Let's not, or I'll go off on the multitude of issues with the modern education system.
So now days I'm magically managing $1100/month for housing, plus bills and incidentals, and feeding 4 kids on an average of $1500/month take home pay without any public assistance.
You got this. Just be creative.

 

[Paradox]

I fully agree and advocate for newer people to learn on nursery material as it is less expensive and less daunting to lose a tree.

You can learn a lot of basics on inexpensive material. But if you set the tree up for failure by putting it in soil that stays wet for days, you won't learn much from a dead tree.

If money is an issue (at some point it is for everyone unless you have a 8 figure bank account), I've always advocated for having less trees in better soil than many trees in crappy soil that sets them up for failure. You'll learn more in the long run from those you keep alive than those you kill.

Good luck

 

[Gabler]

Point set A:
Most of us don't live in reasonable range of anyplace where purpose grown bonsai material is available. Ordering online is always sketchy for many reasons. The additional cost of anything labeled "bonsai" is untenable for anyone on a tight budget.

Point set B:
Large stock is routinely acquired and cut back to something more manageable as common practice. Grafted stock is routinely acquired and worked with/around because of the inaccessibility of non-grafted stock. Damaged or misshapen stock is routinely acquired for the interest provided by said "faults" after refinement.

Conclusion: @dr.tenebris is doing absolutely nothing unusual or unreasonable considering his means and goals.


Dude, I remember $30k/yr.
Let's not, or I'll go off on the multitude of issues with the modern education system.
So now days I'm magically managing $1100/month for housing, plus bills and incidentals, and feeding 4 kids on an average of $1500/month take home pay without any public assistance.
You got this. Just be creative.

I'm not worried for myself. I can lean on my family if I need to, and I'm doing pretty well if my biggest complaint is that my hobby is too expensive.

I am growing weary of the advice to "just start with nicer trees." Is that an offer to pay for them?

 

[Dabbler]

All my material is 100% collected, aka free, minus my alberta spruce, and that wat 5$. My bald cypress is an amazing tree and free and just needed time to make great. I make my own growing pots for 5-10$ a pop. That's as cheap as it comes - only thing that can be $$ is bonsai soil and tools but that can be done cheaply too - I would just learn and read and watch youtube.

This is collected by me and was grown in a plastic concrete mixing tub for 5 years and diy soil, total cost 25$ . Don't get stuck in the arbitrary and work on knowledge and and proper tree healthy and growth for bonsai ( granted I'm not some master or anything, but just an average Joe)

 

[Dabbler]

Please excuse my phone typos

 

[dr.tenebris]

I fully agree and advocate for newer people to learn on nursery material as it is less expensive and less daunting to lose a tree.

You can learn a lot of basics on inexpensive material. But if you set the tree up for failure by putting it in soil that stays wet for days, you won't learn much from a dead tree.

If money is an issue (at some point it is for everyone unless you have a 8 figure bank account), I've always advocated for having less trees in better soil than many trees in crappy soil that sets them up for failure. You'll learn more in the long run from those you keep alive than those you kill.

Good luck

I plan on purchasing better soil when I can cash check.... (Monday) And I'll do a proper full report for the tree! I do want to do some research on soil alternatives I can buy at the nursery if that's at all something worth trying, might be cool to have my own signature soil but it might take a while to figure out the proper mixes... Probably will find somewhere to purchase proper bonsai soil and engineer a soil for a particular plant... Also I think I figured out what kind of maple I have! Was picking up trees that got knocked over and saw similar leaf colors on backbudin, me thinks I has a rugged ridge maple!

Anyways brain do the sidetracked...

I want to find a material that thrives in about 6.5 ph... Might not be reasonable but I'd love to use lava rock gypsum and coffee grounds (possibly) as an experimental soil, I do know I have extremely alkali water i probably should get tested, might balance the natural pH level of gypsum and coffee (both sit at 6.5) not sure tho this is pure impulse talking and i need to read into it as a possibility

 

[dr.tenebris]

After finding exactly one PDF I am awestruck... That actually seems like a perfect ph level... Question is using gypsum as an agent to assist in drainage how should one balance it... Perhaps I should see if there's a thread about different soil mixes (aside from the uneconomical soil Option thread) ah geez ik I'm falling down a stupid rabbit hole and just need to buy the traditional pumice, acadama mix... Why must I be a fool with strange ideas!

 

[Paradox]

After finding exactly one PDF I am awestruck... That actually seems like a perfect ph level... Question is using gypsum as an agent to assist in drainage how should one balance it... Perhaps I should see if there's a thread about different soil mixes (aside from the uneconomical soil Option thread) ah geez ik I'm falling down a stupid rabbit hole and just need to buy the traditional pumice, acadama mix... Why must I be a fool with strange ideas!

You're not the first person to try and find a cheaper alternative mix to what people have been using for decades....
I've been there/done that along with many others. Found out that the alternative wasn't so good and ended up buying the stuff most use. Would have saved time just buying it in the first place instead of trying to reinvent the wheel when the thing that has already been proven to work exists.

The solution to your pH problem is to use something to bring the pH down. There was a discussion here recently about people using a product called pH Down to do that with success.

 

[nuttiest]

Watch out on the coffee it is considered green matter, you can mix green with 4 times the brown matter when starting compost.

 

[ShadyStump]

After finding exactly one PDF I am awestruck... That actually seems like a perfect ph level... Question is using gypsum as an agent to assist in drainage how should one balance it... Perhaps I should see if there's a thread about different soil mixes (aside from the uneconomical soil Option thread) ah geez ik I'm falling down a stupid rabbit hole and just need to buy the traditional pumice, acadama mix... Why must I be a fool with strange ideas!

There are a few resources, two here by MarkyScott.

Resources by markyscott

The most popular Bonsai Community in the WORLD!

www.bonsainut.com

Once you have a feel for the soil physics, you get an idea of how to use just about anything as a substrate medium.

 

[Gabler]

Perlite is a good starting point for budget bonsai soil. I use it for all of my trees in large containers for training. It is essentially artificial pumice.

 

[ShadyStump]

Perlite is a good starting point for budget bonsai soil. I use it for all of my trees in large containers for training. It is essentially artificial pumice.

But you will have to mix it with something to keep it from blowing away every time the old man across the street sneezes.

NAPPA oil dry, part number 8822 is pure diatomaceous earth, and has water and nutrient holding characteristics similar enough to akadama that it's become a very popular substitute. It holds up a bit longer, too, but will be higher pH.

Safety sorb is another popular oil absorbent consisting of Fuller's earth, a natural clay with very high CEC. It is much softer than the 8822, comparable to cheap akadama. It can break down rather quickly. pH isn't as high as 8822.

In the case of a medium that breaks down quickly, I find that mixing it with a good amount of coco coir helps prevent it from turning into a solid mass of compacted sludge.
Adding peat can also help, though it may tend to settle toward the bottom and compact itself. It's also a very low pH, so can mitigate issues alkalinity.
I generally use both. The more fibrous bits of the coco coir is what help prevent compacting, and it decomposes very slowly.
Your coffee grounds SEEM like a good idea, but you'll need to read up on composting science to really know how best to apply it. Hint: don't just dump the basket from the coffee pot directly into your soil bin.

Adding ANY organic components, though, can increase water retention. Good during your summers, but you have to be very careful about not over watering the rest of year. Ask me how I know

Other functioning media on the cheap if you can find it, or are inclined toward mind numbingly monotonous tasks that cathartically work out your anger issues, are crushed brick and terracotta. Brick will be higher in pH, terracotta is closer to neutral. Neither retains water particularly great, but a great many around the world have found them to be a very cheap and accessible soil medium.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Maple update,
Soil drainage has improved greatly after letting it slowly dry out, photo less then a minute after watering dew for reference. (Bank account is empty so couldn't replace soil yet.... May be able next paycheck, will have to see)

Growth seems promising root reduction seems to have been taken well overall recovery efforts seem promising, there are some other trimmed back maples at work that im letting run their course, if they continue to thrive may collect.