Did I kill my tree? An anxious first post!

[underdog1425]

Hi all,

I am new to Bonsai, and have a few questions. First here is a brief introduction.

I have done some reading up on the wikipedia and numerous websites and have what I feel is a good general understanding of the basics for a beginner, even if I happened to choose somewhat difficult plants to start with. I live in central Alabama, so we do get some gnarly temperature swings throughout the seasons.

5/29/12 I purchased the following.

Malus sargentii Tina
Dwarf Flowering Crab
Sapling
Name: Sergeant Malus

Prunus mume W.B. Clarke
Weeping Ume Apricot
Cutting
Name: Mume

I was worried about Mume at first being just a cutting with a little root, but I potted them and they survived their first winter. The potting mixture was regular potting soil and rocks which I washed and mixed in. I had a naive understanding of "rocky, well-draining soil".

Here are a couple of pictures in March 2013 (10 months later). Sgt Malus flowered, Mume did not, though I expected this.





I have since ordered this stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BOGC2K/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

Here comes my questions. The plants are at a height where I want to keep them, a little less than 2 feet, sorry I haven't measured in centimeters. I have repotted them 2 weeks ago and Mume had a nice root ball that I very gently detangled and washed, which took like 2 hours by itself.

Question 1.) I am wary of the soil mixture that I bought. Its basically gravel. I wound up mixing some of the potting soil in about a 1/4 potting soil to 3/4 'bonsai' gravel soil stuff. It drained REALLY fast at first, like, you better have it either over another plant or in the sink...but it has since started draining more slowly. Is this stuff really ok? Did I mess up by mixing it?

Question 2.) When I went to repot Sgt Malus, he didn't really have a root ball. The base of his trunk was moist even though the soil was almost dry to the touch. The trunk itself did end in a root, but there was no real root system. I went ahead and repotted this one anyways, with about a half to half ratio of soil and bonsai gravel. Is it already too late for this guy?


Sorry for long post, I wasn't sure what all info you guys would need.

 

[M. Frary]

Welcome to B-Nut Underdog425. The gravelly, rocky fast draining stuff you bought is fine for bonsai soil. I don't think adding a little potting soil will too the mix up too much.( We really do like fast draining soil.)
Answer to question 2 is more difficult not knowing your location.(you should probably include that next time you post a thread or better yet put it in your profile) But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your trees should be fine. Just let them alone and see what happens. Apples are pretty tough and I suspect the apricot is also.
I hope this answers your questions and once again welcome.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi all,

I am new to Bonsai, and have a few questions. First here is a brief introduction.

I have done some reading up on the wikipedia and numerous websites and have what I feel is a good general understanding of the basics for a beginner, even if I happened to choose somewhat difficult plants to start with. I live in central Alabama, so we do get some gnarly temperature swings throughout the seasons.

5/29/12 I purchased the following.

Malus sargentii Tina
Dwarf Flowering Crab
Sapling
Name: Sergeant Malus

Prunus mume W.B. Clarke
Weeping Ume Apricot
Cutting
Name: Mume

I was worried about Mume at first being just a cutting with a little root, but I potted them and they survived their first winter. The potting mixture was regular potting soil and rocks which I washed and mixed in. I had a naive understanding of "rocky, well-draining soil".

Here are a couple of pictures in March 2013 (10 months later). Sgt Malus flowered, Mume did not, though I expected this.





I have since ordered this stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BOGC2K/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

Here comes my questions. The plants are at a height where I want to keep them, a little less than 2 feet, sorry I haven't measured in centimeters. I have repotted them 2 weeks ago and Mume had a nice root ball that I very gently detangled and washed, which took like 2 hours by itself.

Question 1.) I am wary of the soil mixture that I bought. Its basically gravel. I wound up mixing some of the potting soil in about a 1/4 potting soil to 3/4 'bonsai' gravel soil stuff. It drained REALLY fast at first, like, you better have it either over another plant or in the sink...but it has since started draining more slowly. Is this stuff really ok? Did I mess up by mixing it?

Question 2.) When I went to repot Sgt Malus, he didn't really have a root ball. The base of his trunk was moist even though the soil was almost dry to the touch. The trunk itself did end in a root, but there was no real root system. I went ahead and repotted this one anyways, with about a half to half ratio of soil and bonsai gravel. Is it already too late for this guy?


Sorry for long post, I wasn't sure what all info you guys would need.

I'm not sure what you mean by bonsai gravel? It also sounds like you are having some real difficulties producing root systems. What are you watering habits; it seems to me that your problems may start there.

 

[coppice]

The "gravel" IS bonsai soil. If the trees you have photographed are living indoors they are in far too low light level. The most common system to test for water needs is to insert a chop stick into soil. If it comes out dry, top water liberally. If moist, withhold water that day. Check your soil with a chop stick every single day the tree does not get rain.

Its too late to move your trees outdoors now, but that is where they are headed (if they are to live) late in April--May.

Soiless mix is made of mostly loess or peat. Which holds much too much water. Adding it to bonsai soil might work for azalea or bald cypress, not prunus or malus.

 

[Vance Wood]

The "gravel" IS bonsai soil. If the trees you have photographed are living indoors they are in far too low light level. The most common system to test for water needs is to insert a chop stick into soil. If it comes out dry, top water liberally. If moist, withhold water that day. Check your soil with a chop stick every single day the tree does not get rain.

Its too late to move your trees outdoors now, but that is where they are headed (if they are to live) late in April--May.

Soiless mix is made of mostly loess or peat. Which holds much too much water. Adding it to bonsai soil might work for azalea or bald cypress, not prunus or malus.

Not meaning to be argumentative but how is it that you know that "gravel" is bonsai soil? I don't remember underdog saying that.

You wrote: Soiless mix is made of mostly loess or peat. ? Most bonsai soils today are soils mixes containing no "dirt or garden soil" but mostly sand, volcanic gravel and calcined clay of some sort mixed with a small amount of composted Pine bark mulch.

 

[Oliver Muscio]

Vance,
The soilless mix Coppice appears to be referring to was the op's "potting soil", not bonsai soil. It most likely was mostly peat, etc.

Following the Amazon link the op provided, his "gravel" is purported to be bonsai soil, as Coppice said. According to the Amazon link, it seems to be made up of two bags, one of which is composed of "•Aprox 60% Aggregate, 40% composted fir bark fines." The other is listed as
"•Double Sifted, Lava cinder rock and Calcined Clay
•STOCK UP NOW, BOTH BAGS TOGETHER ABOUT 15 POUNDS"

If I have read this right, I don't know if the op got both bags and mixed them, or only got one (but they don't seem to offered separately, and perhaps they actually come premixed.) Adding regular potting soil to this mix may have led to an excessively water-retentive soil, especially as the trees were apparently kept inside. According to the op's report, it sounds as if the malus had essentially no roots left at all. My guess is that they rotted as a result of over-watering a very retentive soil.

Oliver

 

[underdog1425]

Updated Location: Alabama, though I am not sure what zone that is.

Thanks for the replies and I am sorry if I hit them out of order, but I will try to give good information in my replies.

Vance,
The soilless mix Coppice appears to be referring to was the op's "potting soil", not bonsai soil. It most likely was mostly peat, etc.

Following the Amazon link the op provided, his "gravel" is purported to be bonsai soil, as Coppice said. According to the Amazon link, it seems to be made up of two bags, one of which is composed of "•Aprox 60% Aggregate, 40% composted fir bark fines." The other is listed as
"•Double Sifted, Lava cinder rock and Calcined Clay
•STOCK UP NOW, BOTH BAGS TOGETHER ABOUT 15 POUNDS"

If I have read this right, I don't know if the op got both bags and mixed them, or only got one (but they don't seem to offered separately, and perhaps they actually come premixed.) Adding regular potting soil to this mix may have led to an excessively water-retentive soil, especially as the trees were apparently kept inside. According to the op's report, it sounds as if the malus had essentially no roots left at all. My guess is that they rotted as a result of over-watering a very retentive soil.

Oliver

I'm not sure what you mean by bonsai gravel? It also sounds like you are having some real difficulties producing root systems. What are you watering habits; it seems to me that your problems may start there.

The first soil the Malus lived in was a regular potting soil, so your guess about the root system for that one is likely true.

Currently they are both potted with a mixture of regular potting soil and the bonsai soil, is it too late to remix and repot them? I only did that ~2 weeks ago. I included the link to the bonsai soil I purchased.

I water them every few days, usually once a week. I will water liberally for a solid couple of minutes. I had read online that was a good method, but I like what was posted earlier about using a chopstick too and will incorporate that method.

. Just let them alone and see what happens. Apples are pretty tough and I suspect the apricot is also.
I hope this answers your questions and once again welcome.

I was thinking the same thing, even from my limited experience I have always heard apple trees are pretty hardy.

The "gravel" IS bonsai soil. If the trees you have photographed are living indoors they are in far too low light level. The most common system to test for water needs is to insert a chop stick into soil. If it comes out dry, top water liberally. If moist, withhold water that day. Check your soil with a chop stick every single day the tree does not get rain.

Its too late to move your trees outdoors now, but that is where they are headed (if they are to live) late in April--May.

Soiless mix is made of mostly loess or peat. Which holds much too much water. Adding it to bonsai soil might work for azalea or bald cypress, not prunus or malus.

They were indoors during that photo because cold snap, and have been indoors during winter. We got below freezing conditions every week or so this year, so they lived indoors, but I will be moving them outside this weekend. I kept them indoors after repotting for 2 weeks to 'gently' ease them into the new soil I guess, I didn't want to repot them then immediately put them out in near freezing weather. It just felt a little hasty.

 

[Adair M]

After repotting you should keep the trees from freezing, but prior to that, they could take and enjoy freezing weather. Outdoor trees should be just that: outdoors.

 

[edprocoat]

Apples, including the Crabapple "Sgt Mallus" need 600-900 cold hours to set fruit. They will flower but from what I have read the flowers will sap the vitality if they do not get the cold period they need. I doubt it would be a good idea to repot again after just repotting them 2 weeks ago, thats a lot of stress on the trees again. The one that has the soil mix that was fast draining and now is slow draining has probably had the bottom screen at least partially clogged from the potting soil. You might try lifting the pot and sticking a wire through the screen to clean it out allowing it to drain, you may have to do this regularly until you change the medium. I think this would be better than repotting again so soon. You might try cutting a 1/4 inch hole in the center of the screen to facillitate draining too. Apples really do not like wet feet, they prefer a good soaking and drying out between soakings.

ed

 

[underdog1425]

After repotting you should keep the trees from freezing, but prior to that, they could take and enjoy freezing weather. Outdoor trees should be just that: outdoors.

Ah ok, this goes for the apricot willow too right?

Apples, including the Crabapple "Sgt Mallus" need 600-900 cold hours to set fruit. They will flower but from what I have read the flowers will sap the vitality if they do not get the cold period they need. I doubt it would be a good idea to repot again after just repotting them 2 weeks ago, thats a lot of stress on the trees again. The one that has the soil mix that was fast draining and now is slow draining has probably had the bottom screen at least partially clogged from the potting soil. You might try lifting the pot and sticking a wire through the screen to clean it out allowing it to drain, you may have to do this regularly until you change the medium. I think this would be better than repotting again so soon. You might try cutting a 1/4 inch hole in the center of the screen to facillitate draining too. Apples really do not like wet feet, they prefer a good soaking and drying out between soakings.

ed

Sgt Malus is the one whose draining slowed down, but I watered them yesterday and its draining pretty quickly again.

And due to bad, I actually don't have screens in their pots =[ I read about that after repotting them and was kinda hoping that with a solid layer of the graveley bonsai soil on the bottom and then adding my "mix" (still mostly bonsai soil), that it would be ok..not necessarily ideal but workable.

With that said, they will drain quickly, enough to the point where if I water them, I better either have them over another plant or do it in the sink... but I will be moving them outside this week after reading all these replies so that draining mess won't be an issue.

 

[coppice]

You wrote: Soiless mix is made of mostly loess or peat. ? Most bonsai soils today are soils mixes containing no "dirt or garden soil" but mostly sand, volcanic gravel and calcined clay of some sort mixed with a small amount of composted Pine bark mulch.

Vance I value everything you have said to me over the past fifteen years or so, even when I don't agree with any part of it.

My daughter said it best when she first saw dedicated bonsai soil; "It looks like a bag of rocks with some bark mulch drug through it".

I think we are on the same side of this argument, but don't stop now.

 

[underdog1425]

Vance I value everything you have said to me over the past fifteen years or so, even when I don't agree with any part of it.

My daughter said it best when she first saw dedicated bonsai soil; "It looks like a bag of rocks with some bark mulch drug through it".

I think we are on the same side of this argument, but don't stop now.

That pretty nicely sums up my reaction to it as well.

 

[Vance Wood]

That pretty nicely sums up my reaction to it as well.

Forgive me for making the assumption that the title of this thred ---An anxious first post, also meant that you were a beginner.

I don't keep inventory of every response I have ever made to anyone on this forum. I always try to be honest and fair and if something comes off as a beginner response I will treat it that way. So it was with this post.

There are a lot of things in bonsai that we are fighting a word and definition war about. Currently there are several significant subjects we have not defined consistently using the same terminology so as to avoid confusion on the board, and apparently this has become one of them. There are two things in life in general you don't talk about; religion and politics, in bonsai there are five; religion, politics, pinching, soil and whether or not bonsai is an art.

 

[JudyB]

Hey Vance you forgot #6 - Superthrive!

 

[Dav4]

Hey Vance you forgot #6 - Superthrive!

...and # 7- fertilizer...

 

[Poink88]

My trees are all in development stage and need either to bulk up or build branches.

Most of my soil are a mix of potting soil and "bonsai soil". So far they are thriving. As mentioned earlier, it depends on lots of factors like; local weather/climate, watering style/frequency, sun exposure, type of plant, size of pot, stage of development, etc.

Your soil will work, you might need to adjust one or more of the other factors to compensate though. In time, you can dial your own mix to fit your needs.

Good luck!

 

[armetisius]

re: First post

Welcome to the obsession. I would have said addiction but addiction is centered on one thing--bonsai is not. "Getting into bonsai" is similar to voluntarily developing OCD but with multiple fixations. Every Dollar Tree/Dollar General/Wallyworld/K-Mart clerk will know your name and face--you tend to remember someone buying 47 collanders [cheap growing pots] at once. And every nursery around will know your face as, "leave him alone and let him look; you can't help him find what he's looking for . . ." Neighbors/friends will start asking you to LEAVE YOUR SHEARS AT HOME, or watch you like they are afraid their shrubs will disappear when you visit. You will find yourself obsessing over the amount of gravel/pine bark/[name whatever soil element or fertilizer you like here] you have on hand for this season/week. Spouses tend to become irritable when rocks start showing up and your only explanation is "I think I can do a root over rock with that one". And I won't even begin to fill you in on how people react when you offer to dig up one of their old neglected shrubs. But it is worth every second/inconvenience . . .
Like I said, Welcome to the obsession. Grow something beautiful.
a.

 

[Vance Wood]

My trees are all in development stage and need either to bulk up of build branches.

Most of my soil are a mix of potting soil and "bonsai soil". So far they are thriving. As mentioned earlier, it depends on lots of factors like; local weather/climate, watering style/frequency, sun exposure, type of plant, size of pot, stage of development, etc.

Your soil will work, you might need to adjust one or more of the other factors to compensate though. In time, you can dial your own mix to fit your needs.

Good luck!

The problem with using a commercial potting soil is three fold: #1 you probably don't know what the exact components are and if they are consistent year to year? #2 if you sell the idea of using potting soil to people on the forum, which brand do you recommend and is it consistent across the country, assuming it is available? #3 Are you aware that there are probably as many brands of potting soil as there are nurseries that sell the stuff that can be anything from dirt dug out of the ground and mechanically ground up to;--- dirt from the ground with a ton of crap added to it. Of course that does not address the issue of where the dirt came from.

If you have a source of the stuff that works for you that's fine but that does not mean that every company that produces "Potting Soil" uses the same formula. Some of it is dirt + some of it is mulch + and to make things even more mysterious; the unscrupulous dealers that will sell anything that they think they can get you to buy.

A number of years ago my father was doing some yard work and ordered a truck load of top soil. When the stuff arrived my father looked at it and decided that there was something wrong with it. My father is like me, he takes crap from no one, so he questioned the source of the "top soil". He had also had the stuff analyzed and he found it was nothing but the soot and crap scraped from the inside of the stack in a steel plant.
Needless to say the truck load of "top soil" had to be loaded up and taken away by the seller and the money refunded.

Point being; you don't know what and sometimes you don't know who. If you don't know what's in it and you don't know who's selling it you can't possibly put a good deal of credence in it. There are no FDA guidelines governing the composition of Potting Mix that I know of. And (sorry for the preposition)--- what would the penalty be for violating it? In my experience most of the products sold as potting soil are really, for sarcasms sake, slow-crete. Slow-crete turns to cement a lot slower than Quick-crete but the end is the same.

 

[Poink88]

#2 if you sell the idea of using potting soil to people on the forum, which brand do you recommend and is it consistent across the country, assuming it is available?

I am not selling anyone anything. If I need to clarify everything...a post will be a book long each. I shared what I use and it is up to the OP if he/she want to use/try it or not. For the most part I use Miracle Grow potting soil. From what I can tell, it is mostly composted mulch/bark mix.

 

[Vance Wood]

I am not selling anyone anything. If I need to clarify everything...a post will be a book long each. I shared what I use and it is up to the OP if he/she want to use/try it or not. For the most part I use Miracle Grow potting soil. From what I can tell, it is mostly composted mulch/bark mix.

I don't want to start a fight with you but you are making the assumption that the OP has an idea of what's going on. If you use Miracle Grow potting soil you should have said that. In Michigan I can find probably five name brand potting mixes available here but unheard of elsewhere. If you don't care about what results the OP's of the world get from taking your advise, and taking it wrong, that's up to you.

Still my judgement on the nature and the outcome of "Potting Soils" remains. In the end they turn to concrete.