Development of JBP

[Jmebonsai]

I have 3 different Japanese Black Pine saplings, I think they are about 3-4 years old. I have had them from small seedling/saplings. I think I basically understand how a pine can go from this stage to a refined tree via letting a sacrifice branch grow out, and by keeping the lower branches nice and short, letting two candles from the end of each branch grow out until I have a nice 16 split branch to form a pad.

However, when I look at articles such as this https://bonsaitonight.com/2022/06/1...focusing-growth-in-a-single-sacrifice-branch/ I cant help but notice the small trees pictured look significantly different to what I have so far. I understand pines dont really back bud and also that I have to let the current sacrafice branch grow right out to get thickness on the trunk.

If you look at the pictures I have some small branches lower down on each of these trees, can I cut the trunks to just above these and use this as a new starting point and hopefully get some more buds? I dont have that many needles or places for new buds to push out from. Have I messed these trees up already?

I would love some input from people a bit more experienced with pines and some explanations of roughly what to do over the next few years to help shape the future of these trees.

 

[Jmebonsai]

To follow up. Basically I'm thinking I'll need to cut these right back to the lower tiny shoot on each after the trunk has thickened a fair bit by growing out the sacrafice branch and let that become the new leader?

Is that how you guys would handle these? Will I then be able to get buds on the new leaders enough to form my working branches for the final look of the tree?

 

[bwaynef]

I think the utility in this seedling for a shohin is very limited. It might be possible to force some budding lower down, even on patches w/o needles, but you'd need a bit more vigor than I'm seeing to rely on that, and it will set the thickening back several years. (Essentially, you ramp the tree up and cut off the sacrifice and hope for buds.)

Development might be quicker (assuming shohin is the goal) to start a fresh batch of seeds and maintain more needles along the trunk.

If you're wanting larger than shohin, these can be grown out. If that's what you want, I'd suggest not removing as many needles as you have been ...and if they're falling off, you need to figure out why they are.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Check out this video:

Basically, he cuts the new candle off right above the start of the new growth to get new buds there,
-or-
he cuts the new candle off right below the start of the new growth to encourage back-budding lower down.

I have just used both of these techniques on a few of my 3 year old JBP's and some buds are starting to grow already. Might be worth looking into. Here is my thread with that comment... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/damping-off.46132/post-1047996

 

[MSU JBoots]

Check out this video:

Basically, he cuts the new candle off right above the start of the new growth to get new buds there,
-or-
he cuts the new candle off right below the start of the new growth to encourage back-budding lower down.

I have just used both of these techniques on a few of my 3 year old JBP's and some buds are starting to grow already. Might be worth looking into. Here is my thread with that comment... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/damping-off.46132/post-1047996

This video was extremely helpful. I thought I understood decandling and that it was really for refining bonsai but now I understand better how to use it for my JBP in development. Thank you.

 

[Wulfskaar]

This video was extremely helpful. I thought I understood decandling and that it was really for refining bonsai but now I understand better how to use it for my JBP in development. Thank you.

Yeah I agree. He really explains things very clearly and logically. A couple of his videos have cleared a few things up for me too.

 

[Jmebonsai]

I think the utility in this seedling for a shohin is very limited. It might be possible to force some budding lower down, even on patches w/o needles, but you'd need a bit more vigor than I'm seeing to rely on that, and it will set the thickening back several years. (Essentially, you ramp the tree up and cut off the sacrifice and hope for buds.)

Development might be quicker (assuming shohin is the goal) to start a fresh batch of seeds and maintain more needles along the trunk.

If you're wanting larger than shohin, these can be grown out. If that's what you want, I'd suggest not removing as many needles as you have been ...and if they're falling off, you need to figure out why they are.

My plan wasn't really to make these into shohins, I'm thinking maybe a 15-20 inch tall tree. I think I messed up on the fertilising at the start of this year / through winter last year. I didnt really fertilise them as much as I should have, seeing the result of this now. I have set up a solid fertilising schedule now though and plan to continue year round now to get the tree nice and healthy and with plenty of energy, now I know that I only really need to worry about things like needle length later on in the refinement stage, my understanding is short internodes are to be controlled with decandling like in the video posted above in this thread, shortening the spring buds and then getting the slower summer growth.
I have been pulling some of the needles on these so I had an easier time wiring them, I now know though this was wrong as I wont get buds from here! The mistakes we make early on in this hobby right...
I think im going to buy some seeds online and get them planted next spring so I have some more trees to work with, maybe I can make some shohins from these. I did have a few more than this but birds kept attacking the soil and pulling the trees out by their roots. I would come home from work and find my poor trees uprooted and sitting baking in the sun thanks to some pesky pidgeons and crows. Killed quite a few of them sadly.

 

[Jmebonsai]

Check out this video:

Basically, he cuts the new candle off right above the start of the new growth to get new buds there,
-or-
he cuts the new candle off right below the start of the new growth to encourage back-budding lower down.

I have just used both of these techniques on a few of my 3 year old JBP's and some buds are starting to grow already. Might be worth looking into. Here is my thread with that comment... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/damping-off.46132/post-1047996

This is a really informative video. I didnt realise you could cut below where the terminal buds had formed to force back budding. The problem on my trees though I dont really have needles to backbud to. I think im going to have to develop mine into standard size bonsai, 15-20 inch tall trees rather than shohins. Had a look through your thread too, got some nice trees coming along!