Developing Juniper Stock: Field Growing

[yenling83]

How do they do it?

I'm curious if anyone can link me to, or reccomend any articles or info on developing juniper stock in the field? I asked Marco about this once and he told me to ask Jim Gremmel. Or maybe to see if Jim would be willing to show me. Hopefully someday that will happen if Jim would be willing. But, I would love to see some articles on how juipers get these amazing movement and are field grown. How does Cheng Cheng do it? I've heard they will wire movement into long whips, then bend shapes into the whips, leave the wire on for a while, then scrunch the tree down even more giving the whip even more movement.

 

[Smoke]

How do they do it?

I'm curious if anyone can link me to, or reccomend any articles or info on developing juniper stock in the field? I asked Marco about this once and he told me to ask Jim Gremmel. Or maybe to see if Jim would be willing to show me. Hopefully someday that will happen if Jim would be willing. But, I would love to see some articles on how juipers get these amazing movement and are field grown. How does Cheng Cheng do it? I've heard they will wire movement into long whips, then bend shapes into the whips, leave the wire on for a while, then scrunch the tree down even more giving the whip even more movement.

This year Jim Gremel will once again be entering the Toko Kazari at the Clark Center for Japanese Art April 17-18. It will be a great bonsai day with Kathy Shaner as a judge as well as doimg demo's and a lecture on display Sunday.

Pop on over Saturday and spend the day looking at the entries as well as talking with Gremel first hand not manning a booth and having time to just BS.

 

[greerhw]

One of Jim's graphs. One is the picture of the way I bought it, the other is after Marco tweaked it a little. It's starting to fill out nicely. Jim is one of the straight shooters in this hobby.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[snobird]

In Taiwan they grow these Junipers in fields from a young age. I still want to go and see for myself and the best I can do is to refer you to an article that was written by Salvatore Liporace a few years back in Bonsai Europe where he explained it. Unfortunately I do not know which one it was as I do not have the magazines in my possession anymore. I just remember that it takes a good number of years for good material to develop in the region of 30-40 years.

 

[IIIROYIII]

rumor has it that the place where i've bought my nursery stock juniper used dynamite. an old nursery in florida used the junipers for cuttings for years. then for some reason or another the owner decided he didn't need them anymore, put them in a field and tried to blow them up. they didn't die, just twisted and burned them all up. and there they sat for years. you could try that.

 

[chrisbotero]

rumor has it that the place where i've bought my nursery stock juniper used dynamite. an old nursery in florida used the junipers for cuttings for years. then for some reason or another the owner decided he didn't need them anymore, put them in a field and tried to blow them up. they didn't die, just twisted and burned them all up. and there they sat for years. you could try that.

...and post it on YouTube.

 

[irene_b]

Google " Lindsay Farr" he has video's of how they do it.
Irene

 

[bretts]

You could serve it up on a silver plate Irene
http://www.bonsaifarm.tv/

 

[R_F]

rumor has it that the place where i've bought my nursery stock juniper used dynamite. an old nursery in florida used the junipers for cuttings for years. then for some reason or another the owner decided he didn't need them anymore, put them in a field and tried to blow them up. they didn't die, just twisted and burned them all up. and there they sat for years. you could try that.

LOL ..... I'm still laughing!

 

[milehigh_7]

You could serve it up on a silver plate Irene
http://www.bonsaifarm.tv/

Hey Bretts wasn't there a really good series over on Ausbonsai on this very subject? Unless I am mistaken Jow was the author of said posts.

 

[irene_b]

You could serve it up on a silver plate Irene
http://www.bonsaifarm.tv/

Yup, I could have, but that removes you kids learning how to search for stuff yourselfs....
Irene

 

[jamie11]

Hey Bretts wasn't there a really good series over on Ausbonsai on this very subject? Unless I am mistaken Jow was the author of said posts.

thats correct mate.

 

[shohin kid]

How do they do it?

I'm curious if anyone can link me to, or reccomend any articles or info on developing juniper stock in the field? I asked Marco about this once and he told me to ask Jim Gremmel. Or maybe to see if Jim would be willing to show me. Hopefully someday that will happen if Jim would be willing. But, I would love to see some articles on how juipers get these amazing movement and are field grown. How does Cheng Cheng do it? I've heard they will wire movement into long whips, then bend shapes into the whips, leave the wire on for a while, then scrunch the tree down even more giving the whip even more movement.

Since you have not edited you profile to tell us where you live, we cant really help you. I can tell you from my experience in Missouri though. We have real bad soil around the STL area. So, trees need to be grown out in pots. What I have learned from working at one nursery is that all you need to to is put trees in garden center plastic pots. Every time the roots get tight, rake a tiny bit of soil off and put it in a bigger plastic nursery pot. Keep repeating this process until it is in the biggest plastic pot you can find. Also put it in bonsai soil, not akadama or anything that breaks down fast. I bonsai soil from Cass Bonsai, http://www.cassbonsaigardens.com/ , for trees that I am growing. It is mostly pine bark and haydite.

Also I have seen many shimpaku come into a nursery here in STL from florida, and they are grown in a soil containing a lot of sand. I have also read that junipers like to have sand in their soil mix (I think some of the Japanese do it). So I will be experimenting with this, although I cant say for sure that it works yet. The ones from florida that have a lot of sand look amazing. Their foliage is absolutely stunning in color.

From my experience, if you grow them right, in pots, they will look almost as good as growing them in the ground. At the nursery I worked at last summer, there was a huge shimpaku grown from a tiny cutting. About 8-10 years of growing I was told. I have personally started growing out many this year too, using the process that I told you above. I put some some wire to shape them, and after I take the wire off, I will forget about them until I am pleased with their size.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

One of Jim's graphs. One is the picture of the way I bought it, the other is after Marco tweaked it a little. It's starting to fill out nicely. Jim is one of the straight shooters in this hobby.

keep it green,
Harry

Harry that looks more like a Tanuki than a graphed shimpaku ....

as to the original poster.... they put em in the ground..... and water them!! beyond that... use your imagination....

 

[jester_b]

I'm after the same information as the OP

Shimpaku can grow rapidly; not all do though. Itoigawa actually grow slowly, so developing a big trunk will take some time. Plus techniques for rapid trunk growth don't necessarily work well for itoigawa. If you let leaders/branches run wild to accelerate trunk growth you end up with foliage away from the trunk and have to spend a bunch of time chasing it back in. As a result, you see a lot of itoigawa with twisted branches that double back and forth in order to make foliage appear compact.

So, as October says, a short tree with tight branching and foliage is quite desirable, but time-consuming to create, resulting in a higher price, relatively speaking.

The bottom line is this: there are less itoigawa around because they are not popular in most trades; you have to make them grow short with tight branches and foliage because its not going to happen on its own; and it takes quite awhile to develop them.

I grabbed that quote from a post in the juniper section.
from reading between the lines I'd, untill otherwise told, would plant in the ground perhaps over a plate or in a grow box.
wire the leader and keep it pruned while growing out the 1st and perhaps the 2nd branch to improve taper.
when the trunk is at a good size start chaseing the foliage back by pruning the 1st and 2nd branches season by season.

I am totally new and have no idea what I'm talking about so the questions this brings up to me are...
would the first branch be too big to use at this point?
if so I'd guess yould cut it off and carve in a shari?
I guess this is where experience and forethought would really chime in as placment of that sacrificial branch would be important.
if you kept pruning back how close to the trunk is it possible to get new buds to pop.
I have read they don't like to bud from old wood. how old is too old?

 

[Eric Schrader]

Jim

I think you're on the right track, the sacrifice branches will be too large to use so they need to be shortened and carved. Try not to think in terms of "first branch, second branch" this is not a good way to design a tree.

Once a tree (even a juniper) is in the ground and established it is difficult to train it like a bonsai. Wire will cut in too quickly to keep track of. Unless you are only ground growing a couple trees it's not a good idea.

I would recommend prior to planting in the ground that you grow the trunk section that you want to use and establish the sacrifice branches and add movement. Let the movement set and then remove the wire. Then plant the tree in the ground for 4-10 years. You may have to do some pruning to control relative vigor in a juniper, but you would do much more in other types of trees (like say a maple)

In my experience Kishu will bud at the base of a larger branch with new small buds when you cut it back hard and it's healthy. Make sure that the branches that are to be removed have been wired since the jin that are left should not be straight.

I would think that a hard pruning early in the season prior to the year it was dug would allow for some good shoots to work with to make finished branches.

Here's a photo of part of Jim's growing field (perhaps better called a growing forest!):

 

[Neli]

There are two ways to grow unipers in Japan, and two different prices for them.
Some are grown their entire life in a small pot or a bit larger depending on the final size wanted.
here is an example of a juniper grown for mame.:

The pots this junipers are grown is 10 cm diameter.
Junipers are propagated normally from tip cuttings, not longer than 10 cm. While very young they are wired crazy and the wire left to bite in the bark deliberately so it can set faster. Junipers heal very well, so that should not be a concern.
This are some of my field grown junipers in larger sizes. Notice the sharied bend sacrifice branches, and the twisted bent trunk.

In Japan they are not really concerned too much with the lower branches...they are sharied most of the time or cut off.
A typical traditional style juniper most often is developed from around 3 branches...coming from the top and some time even one only.
Very often that only branch coming from the apex of the tree will be bent and used as a first branch.
All branches are grown from that only branch including the apex, but you will never notice it if properly done.
Here is an example from school
This juniper was initially developed from one branch at the top, from which several branches emerged at the base.

Most branches that are used come from the top. Some are directed back and down some to the sides as primary branches and small branch is left on top for developing the apex normally coming off that only branch at a suitable place. That branch will be bent down wards, and used as a first primary branch.
Can you see it going down?

You must remember that junipers go through several stages of development, totally different in nature.
This is the second stage of styling for this juniper. It still needs to fill up, and only few of the secondary branches are wired.
But more about that coming soon on my blog.
Here it is a virtual for a juniper so you understand better how it is done:

First and second primary branches on the right come from the top from behind. The right branch is actually a continuation of the trunk line.
There is quait a lot regarding this topic but need to go out and work now.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Neil, what is your blog URL? I am really interested in seeing more.

 

[Eric Group]

There are two ways to grow unipers in Japan, and two different prices for them.
Some are grown their entire life in a small pot or a bit larger depending on the final size wanted.
here is an example of a juniper grown for mame.:

The pots this junipers are grown is 10 cm diameter.
Junipers are propagated normally from tip cuttings, not longer than 10 cm. While very young they are wired crazy and the wire left to bite in the bark deliberately so it can set faster. Junipers heal very well, so that should not be a concern.
This are some of my field grown junipers in larger sizes. Notice the sharied bend sacrifice branches, and the twisted bent trunk.

In Japan they are not really concerned too much with the lower branches...they are sharied most of the time or cut off.
A typical traditional style juniper most often is developed from around 3 branches...coming from the top and some time even one only.
Very often that only branch coming from the apex of the tree will be bent and used as a first branch.
All branches are grown from that only branch including the apex, but you will never notice it if properly done.
Here is an example from school
This juniper was initially developed from one branch at the top, from which several branches emerged at the base.

Most branches that are used come from the top. Some are directed back and down some to the sides as primary branches and small branch is left on top for developing the apex normally coming off that only branch at a suitable place. That branch will be bent down wards, and used as a first primary branch.
Can you see it going down?

You must remember that junipers go through several stages of development, totally different in nature.
This is the second stage of styling for this juniper. It still needs to fill up, and only few of the secondary branches are wired.
But more about that coming soon on my blog.
Here it is a virtual for a juniper so you understand better how it is done:

First and second primary branches on the right come from the top from behind. The right branch is actually a continuation of the trunk line.
There is quait a lot regarding this topic but need to go out and work now.

Wow... I feel like I just went through a class on Japanese technique... Great post! Thanks!

 

[Neli]

It is embarrassing to say that but I have been lazy and have not finished the article yet. Going to sit down this week and finish it.
I was also not too sure if people are really interested.
But I can tell you I was actually shocked at the way they are styling the junipers. Never imagined that it can be done like that.
I have taken lots of pictures in Japan for this article while I was styling at school, Just need to sit down and finish the article.
This is my blog...but I have done only a small part 1 on junipers.
Navigate through the menus and sub menus on top.
http://nelibonsai.wordpress.com/
and the link to the first part of junipers.
http://nelibonsai.wordpress.com/201...itional-japanese-style-part-1-rough-material/