I'm wondering how you go about determining height on a limbless collected deciduous tree? Is it better to cut it down to the height you want or leave it taller until it recovers? I dug a rocky mountain maple that is about 5" across the base and while I want it to be a taller tree, I don't want it too tall. Right now its about 2.5 feet and completely naked.
Determining height vs width on collected trees
- Thread starter GailC
- Start date
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Guideline is 1 inch trunk to 6 inches height.
Design envisioned will also determine position of
first branch.
Good Luck
Anthony
Design envisioned will also determine position of
first branch.
Good Luck
Anthony
jeanluc83
Omono
I would go with 1/2 to 2/3 the final envisioned height.
You don't want to have it too tall or you will need to reduce it again possibly removing all the new growth.
You don't want to have it too tall or you will need to reduce it again possibly removing all the new growth.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
It depends. It seems like you are asking two questions at once "I want it to be... not too tall" and "is it better to cut it down... or leave it until it recovers". One is a design question, the other is a health question. With collected trees I always lead with the health issue first - ie what should I do to make sure the tree survives. Then, I ask - what should I do to move quickly towards my future design.
Remembering that nebari is the hardest thing to change in a tree, followed by the trunk line, if I collect a tree where I am not going to use the majority of the trunk, the sooner I reduce it the better (as long as I don't kill the tree).
Remembering that nebari is the hardest thing to change in a tree, followed by the trunk line, if I collect a tree where I am not going to use the majority of the trunk, the sooner I reduce it the better (as long as I don't kill the tree).
wireme
Masterpiece
I collected a maple of the same species a few years ago. It died back quite a ways below the chop site. By observation of that and tree habit in the area I think they are more prone to die back than most other maples. I’d leave it as is, see where buds and new branches pop and work down to a selected one of those next year.
Zach Smith
Omono
I have not found it necessary to chop deciduous trees extra long for health reasons. You're taking off over 90% of the root system, so you can take off over 90% of the above ground part. Now, from a design perspective you want a tapering trunk and as a general rule of thumb plan on a height to basal trunk thickness ratio of anywhere from 6:1 to 10:1. Most of your collected trees won't fit the squat moyogi pattern with sharp curves, but rather a more gently curving and taller one. What I try to do is to find that spot up the trunk where it's roughly half as thick as it is at the soil surface, and chop there.
For what it's worth.
For what it's worth.
Yeah, I guess it is two questions. I just didn't know if leaving excess height would be detrimental at all or if its better to remove it all now. Seems the consensus is to cut it down to height now.
Its a ugly wavy trunk, not much going on but I wanted something bigger to practice on. I have a bigger norway lined up for next spring. Cut it way back in the ground, it had a ton of buds low so it should be a good project.
Good info, thanks. I will leave it a bit tall but as it is now, its way too tall.
I went out and measured my tree so I could mark it to cut but found a bud up kinda high so I'll leave it for now. I want leaves on this as soon as possible. I'm also considering not cutting it much at all. As much as I don't want it overly tall, I also don't want to remove what gentle curves this does have.
I'm thinking I want this to be a leaner, guess its going to depend o how the nebari turns out. The one bud I saw is right at 30"
kinda boring cut back
I'm thinking I want this to be a leaner, guess its going to depend o how the nebari turns out. The one bud I saw is right at 30"
kinda boring cut back
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I dont know if these layer....
But I look at these like potential candidates.
Leaving everything...since it can sprout and grow its thickest new branch (your new "leader") from any node .....
I'm a "sucker" for a great radial spread...so seeing that base off to the side of the pot says..."start over"...
But besides that...if they layer...removing anything is just removing options...which at this point...we need all we can get.
The crab layer I got from you is so well proportioned...I'm sure you get that...
But let's say you get 2 branches growing really well as new leaders on this...same thickness...
Within the first 6inches...
One has 6 nodes..
One has 2...
Which do you chose?
The one with 6 nodes!
But what if that one was going to grow at the top?
You may cut it off...removing options.
I think when we dig trees...and they can not be layered straight away, we forget about it and somehow force ourselves to believe we must use the base we dug.
But long game says you can design a way better tree if remembering to leave as many options available as possible...and never forgetting layering is one of those options.
Then with your eye, well tuned to proportion as it is...you can utilize all your skills and make a wicked tree from anywhere...
For me...the next most important thing to achieve with this tree...is a fat new leader with close nodes...
That will determine where the tree is.
My 925 Maple had just enough movement and taper to attempt to utilize its base...
But I am in this mode of finding thick branches with good nodes to somehow determine it's path.
Backwords World...
Attaching "long game" as a definition automatically makes the game shorter!
Bimble!
See the Blue Bell Windswept thread...
Sorce
But I look at these like potential candidates.
Leaving everything...since it can sprout and grow its thickest new branch (your new "leader") from any node .....
I'm a "sucker" for a great radial spread...so seeing that base off to the side of the pot says..."start over"...
But besides that...if they layer...removing anything is just removing options...which at this point...we need all we can get.
The crab layer I got from you is so well proportioned...I'm sure you get that...
But let's say you get 2 branches growing really well as new leaders on this...same thickness...
Within the first 6inches...
One has 6 nodes..
One has 2...
Which do you chose?
The one with 6 nodes!
But what if that one was going to grow at the top?
You may cut it off...removing options.
I think when we dig trees...and they can not be layered straight away, we forget about it and somehow force ourselves to believe we must use the base we dug.
But long game says you can design a way better tree if remembering to leave as many options available as possible...and never forgetting layering is one of those options.
Then with your eye, well tuned to proportion as it is...you can utilize all your skills and make a wicked tree from anywhere...
For me...the next most important thing to achieve with this tree...is a fat new leader with close nodes...
That will determine where the tree is.
My 925 Maple had just enough movement and taper to attempt to utilize its base...
But I am in this mode of finding thick branches with good nodes to somehow determine it's path.
Backwords World...
Attaching "long game" as a definition automatically makes the game shorter!
Bimble!
See the Blue Bell Windswept thread...
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
jeanluc83
Omono
There is some movement but not much taper. I probably would have chopped it back to 12". The final tree height would be around 24".
At this point I might be inclined to just leave it as is. Next year, once it has recovered thread graft branches where you want them. The year after that chop and repot.
At this point I might be inclined to just leave it as is. Next year, once it has recovered thread graft branches where you want them. The year after that chop and repot.
fviljoen963
Mame
.
fviljoen963
Mame
Seconding that 18 inch cut to use the bud below it
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Suggestion ------- colander, ground grow.
Get LUSH = buds all over.
2 or 3 years later make branch choices.
Probably 5 years later refine.
In 2 or 3 years when LUSH, the design should obvious.
Also you can study the healing factor.
Good Day
Anthony
Here is an example - still unknown local.
Study done on healing factor and ability to go dense
of leaf or branch.
End of study, amazing healing factor, very large wounds no
problem, heals well.sLeaf dense, go next stage training.
Additionally pot allowed the shrub to go from found stump
with coarse roots to a well developed core.
The area to the front was sawn off.
Healed in the pot in under a year.
Get LUSH = buds all over.
2 or 3 years later make branch choices.
Probably 5 years later refine.
In 2 or 3 years when LUSH, the design should obvious.
Also you can study the healing factor.
Good Day
Anthony
Here is an example - still unknown local.
Study done on healing factor and ability to go dense
of leaf or branch.
End of study, amazing healing factor, very large wounds no
problem, heals well.sLeaf dense, go next stage training.
Additionally pot allowed the shrub to go from found stump
with coarse roots to a well developed core.
The area to the front was sawn off.
Healed in the pot in under a year.
Layering is a definite possibility. The nebari is fairly one sided but I think it can be fixed with a really big cut back, if not then a ground layer will happen. Layering into two trees is a good idea and I can put wiggle where I want it.
First priority is to keep it alive. Not only did I harvest at the wrong time but I somehow managed to forget my shovel that day so my DH pulled it out with a winch. Surprisingly, a lot of roots came out with it. If it doesn't survive, it just a short ride on the ATV to find another. They grow like weeds here.
First priority is to keep it alive. Not only did I harvest at the wrong time but I somehow managed to forget my shovel that day so my DH pulled it out with a winch. Surprisingly, a lot of roots came out with it. If it doesn't survive, it just a short ride on the ATV to find another. They grow like weeds here.
WOOB
Sapling
Let it grow ... Leave it be till its fat and happy... See were it pops and then figure it out. It not worth anything if it dies.
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