Deshojo or Seigen Maple

[Waynebarnier]

Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me identify my parents maple? They bought it a few years ago as a very small cutting. The nusery told them it was either seigen or deshojo, but my parents can't totally remember. They are almost positive they said Seigen..Any help would be appreciated! Thank you

 

[Emanon]

I hate to say it, but this might not be the best forum to ask your question. Many have tried and failed! You will undoubtedly get a number of responses of the kind..."if you no longer have the nursery label that came with the tree when you bought, that identified the cultivar, then you no longer have a cultivar at all. Kind of like saying if you lose your dog's pedigree paperwork, you now have a mutt. Maybe there's a maple lovers's forum somewhere on the Internet that's more general (not bonsai specific) and you can ask your question there?

I know what you mean though...you just want to know how to take care of your tree. Different cultivars have different habits and requirements, right? If you have a Bloodgood cultivar you can pretty much leave it out without worry in full SoCal sun, but if you have a Seigen you might want to pay more attention to how much sun/shade it is getting. The apex of certain bonsai rough bark trees might have the tendancy to die off whereas other cultivars don't. If you have the one that's prone to this, and you know it's of this kind, it might less to less stress and deadly overreaction. To go back to the dog analogy, even though you don't have your dog's paperwork, it might be good to be told by a dog expert that your dog is most likely, for example, a bulldog based on its phenotypic characteristics, because you can then anticipate certain health issues early on, maybe go to the vet more often than you would for a mutt, buy different food, etc.

 

[Waynebarnier]

Oh, I get it! Honestly how would/ could anyone tell the difference, or proof it? Unfortunately only the nusery would know the 100% truth on the tree! Thank you for the info and comment! Appreciate you

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is a Seigen for comparison. That’s about all I can help with.

 

[Waynebarnier]

Thank you! It's almost impossible to tell the difference...Crazy how close they are. Gonna come down to spring color I think...I appreciate you

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thank you! It's almost impossible to tell the difference...Crazy how close they are. Gonna come down to spring color I think...I appreciate you

The reality is that given genetic variability, there is no way to know (via visual inspection). Anyone who keeps Japanese maple will tell you that they can take on slightly different appearances given the conditions in which they are growing. Just as an example, I just planted eight bloodgood maples in my front yard. None look exactly the same even though they are clones, all from the same nursery - because they had been kept in nursery pots in slightly different conditions.

Worry less about the cultivar, than about how beautiful the tree is. Certainly if you are trying to determine a cultivar after the fact, it is fool's errand.

[EDIT] Repeating for people who don't know - the best Japanese maple bonsai are not cultivars. In Japan they sow JM seeds and select those that have the best characteristics for bonsai. They aren't cultivars.... one could actually say they are each unique! [/EDIT]

 

[Waynebarnier]

Excellent advice! I guess I wanted to know exactly for care purposes. But you are 100% right. They are so close in characters how could one truly tell...Thank you! Appreciate you

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Here is an image from Merggioli's book.

There are certain characteristics that are reliably different between each member of the holy trinity:

- shape of the central lobe (Seigen is unmistakably slender; Beni Chidori tends to transition from wide to thin quickly; Deshojo looks like a cartoon flame of a candle).
- yellow veining
- serration - of the 3, Beni Chidori has the largest serrations that are the most choppy
- coppery-red of Deshojo as opposed to red and a green that is more yellow, pale green, or chartreuse like Seigen and Beni Chidori
- leaf shape - it is said that beni chidori 'fits in a coin' as opposed to Seigen which has more vertical length

Of these 3, your plant looks most like Deshojo but I would never, ever guess any Japanese Maple cultivar. However, it is possible to rule out cultivars: your plant is definitely not Seigen, and it is not Beni Chidori.

The USA has a major issue because even otherwise reputable vendors (I could name you 5, but I won't) have been sold plants labelled as 'Seigen' that were Deshojo, Beni Maiko, and a number of other cultivars... and they have been propagating and selling them as 'Seigen'. Some of them have been advised by committees responsible for Acer palmatum cultivar registration and nonetheless continue to sell their 'fakes'. A few of them claim 'a japanese master told me it's Seigen' to which the committee just rolls its eyes. Hobbyist unfortunately are very excited when they find a 'Seigen' and rightfully jump on the opportunity -- some of them end up propagating their plants. The entire situation is very unfortunate.

Repeating for people who don't know - the best Japanese maple bonsai are not cultivars. In Japan they sow JM seeds and select those that have the best characteristics for bonsai. They aren't cultivars.... one could actually say they are each unique!

and the reverse is also true, if not more true

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The USA has a major issue because even otherwise reputable vendors (I could name you 5, but I won't) have been sold plants labelled as 'Seigen' that were Deshojo, Beni Maiko, and a number of other cultivars... and they have been propagating and selling them as 'Seigen'.

I have two 'seigen' cultivar lines. Both are from reputable nurseries. However one can trace their stock back to Japan - via one trusted intermediary. The second one I'm not sure where they got their stock. They are both pretty cultivars - but they do not look exactly like one another IMHO. Given the chaos in my life the last couple of years, it has been difficult to do a side-by-side comparison since they have been in slightly different soil, etc. I repotted them all into the same soil last year, and in the spring I will place them on the same bench right next to each other so I can try to take some apples-to-apples photos.