Decandling and sacrifice branches

[MrFancyPlants]

I have some decandling to do a week or so behind schedule. I was debating cutting off nearly all of the sacrifices and starting over with new sacrifices in order to minimize scarring and to slow down the trees a bit. Do you think I should do while I decandle? Or, save it for cooler winter work?

Let me know what you think.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

My mother and aunt were visiting and she said she thought they were “long needle pines,” which I felt was a little insulting, but that is just vigor before the storm, right?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

What do you think about this one?
Let it grow? Cut back hard now? Somewhere in the middle?

I want some shohin or smaller trees.

And some formal upright.

Ideally, both. And I think this has the potential. But, I am not sure how to go about targeting a formal uprights.

I’d love some feedback and you are even allowed to insult the material per that other thead. Let me have it.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

I may be wrong here, since you're in SC and have a longer growing season, but you might be too late to decandle this year.

Maybe someone here in your zone can give you better direction.

As for the long-needle comment...they will shorten depending on your schedule for decanaling. The longer you wait, the shorter the needles (preferred especially for shohin)...but if you wait too long, they may not develop enough to sustain the tree. This process can take a bit for the older foliage to be replaced/removed.

The sacrifice branches are usually suggested to be removed in the spring from what I've read, though ymmv depending on who you talk to.

I wish you luck. And nice collection!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I may be wrong here, since you're in SC and have a longer growing season, but you might be too late to decandle this year.

Maybe someone here in your zone can give you better direction.

As for the long-needle comment...they will shorten depending on your schedule for decanaling. The longer you wait, the shorter the needles (preferred especially for shohin)...but if you wait too long, they may not develop enough to sustain the tree. This process can take a bit for the older foliage to be replaced/removed.

The sacrifice branches are usually suggested to be removed in the spring from what I've read, though ymmv depending on who you talk to.

I wish you luck. And nice collection!

Due to some travel, I am delayed by about 10 days this year, but I am going to go for it on most of my JBP.

The photos are before and after a July 19th decandling last year. The needles are were quite short, but not lacking vigor in March, I would argue. But you have me thinking I should maintain the sacrifice at least until Spring since I am late.. to provide some extra sustenance.

I am about 10 min from the beach, so our first freeze happens quite late in the year.

Thank you for the comments!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I went a bit harder on this guy because I want to keep the design as small as possible. Really it is not decandling, but I am hoping to invoke a similar response due to the timing. I plucked some needles from the sacrifices, and cut needles only where I might use a future bud.
I am terrible at wiring, but that little speck in the center of the center whirl is a bud that I’ll try to rustle the courage to point it straight up as much as I can, or talk someone else into doing it for me.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I might have it buried a bit deep? Should I remove a bit of substrate? The @cmeg1 roots are nice and established, with air pruning visibly ongoing.
I did remove the fertilizer.

 

[Shibui]

I might have it buried a bit deep?

This does not seem to matter too much with pines as they are less likely to produce new lateral roots. Biggest problem is you won't have an accurate picture of trunk height. I would not worry this year.

I was debating cutting off nearly all of the sacrifices and starting over with new sacrifices in order to minimize scarring and to slow down the trees a bit. Do you think I should do while I decandle? Or, save it for cooler winter work?

This is a two edged sword. Retaining sacrifices definitely thickens trunks but also leaves bigger scars that will need to heal = more years. Cut and replace sacrifices slows thickening but gives much better trunk because of less scarring. For speed, leave sacrifices. For quality, replace sacrifice branches. Your choice.
Now or later? Retaining sacrifices will probably reduce response to decandling. At worst you may get limited new shoots. At best you will get very small shoots. Removing sacrifice now may see longer new shoots. I do not have enough direct experience with both to be able to draw conclusions.

Remember that decandling is not the only technique for developing pines. I mostly use grow and chop for the early stages of pine development. Decandling is more to develop ramification in the middle stages and for maintenance in the final stages.

 

[Dav4]

I’d be cautious decandling this late in the year. The sweet spot for decandling jbp just north of atlanta is around July 4th +/- one week. I believe there’s more going on with bud growth and needle elongation then just the number of days before frost, like day length. You can probably get away with pushing the envelope for a season, but doing it for several seasons in a row will really weaken the tree. Anyway, maybe try it with one or two of your project trees.

As far as the sacrifices go, if they’ve done their job, they can go whenever.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I’d be likely to wait to remove the sacrifice branches until Spring. Candle-cutting plus removing sacrifice branches might throw off the water uptake and cause some root issues if watering is a bit heavy. Really nice development of that bigger one, and with this much time invested, what’s another 6 months?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I hear what some are saying about being too late for decandling. Or cutting back as the case is for the smaller ones. But I think I am going to go for it still, but save the sacrifices for Spring.

The big one just has too much energy and I didn’t do bifurcation trimming properly this past fall/Spring, so I’ll be developing some strong knuckles if I let it run another year.

If it slows any down too much, I’ll skip or do early next year.

The smaller ones I want to keep small, so I think I’ll do some form of decandling and/or clip and grow now.

Kind of like the double edged sword @99 Mile Creek referred to, I think doing work late for decandling will weaken, slow the trees down for sure, but that will give me the opportunity to develop the structure in finer detail.

Now that I am back from travel, I can shut down the auto watering sprinklers and water more carefully, thought the mix is quite loose and airy in the orchid pots.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Well this one was easy. I did some work this year already and it is young and weak, so I just cleaned up some odd needles and plucked the sacrifice out. And reduced the buds on the sacrifice to one.
It does occur to me that maybe I should continue to fertilize to balance the late cutting? For this one I added the fertilizer tablets that I removed from the first subject.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

This one is the closest to actual decandling that I have done so far. There were some needles below the soil, so I did empty it out a bit. And I decided to load it up with Biogold since the operation is late. It won’t risk agriform aggressive growth.

In the spring I am going to take a blow torch to the sacrifice. Mark my word, “blowtorch.”

The roots are busting out all over on the orchid pot. And a bunch of Mycorrhiza was apparent when I removed the surface soil.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

This one is weak and looks over watered. I mostly cleaned up the soil surface and removed brown needles. I did cut a few needles near the second whirl from the bottom and added biogold.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Good luck on this job. Would ease up a tad on the fertilizer now.

In the end, the result is going to depend more upon the health of the trees involved, rather than the timing up to midsummer. One wants to fertilize JPB in development strongly in spring and ease off once candles are cut, to decrease eventual needle size.

It is a normal practice for robust and healthy younger JPB to cut back into last years green needles each year to develop backbudding. Also have done this to older JBP and JRP, but in late June.

We have done this process for three years straight as late as July 20th in our area with outstanding results. It’s also in Eric Schrader, Developing JPB for Shohin course, which I strongly recommend taking a look at as this project is similar in scope to his work.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Good luck on this job. Would ease up a tad on the fertilizer now.

In the end, the result is going to depend more upon the health of the trees involved, rather than the timing up to midsummer. One wants to fertilize JPB in development strongly in spring and ease off once candles are cut, to decrease eventual needle size.

It is a normal practice for robust and healthy younger JPB to cut back into last years green needles each year to develop backbudding. Also have done this to older JBP and JRP, but in late June.

We have done this process for three years straight as late as July 20th in our area with outstanding results. It’s also in Eric Schrader, Developing JPB for Shohin course, which I strongly recommend taking a look at as this project is similar in scope to his work.

Cheers
DSD sends

10-4 on the excess fert.. I’ll still give them a little and a little more for the weak ones.
It does freeze really late around here so I think I am not as late as it feels for most of the rest of the country.
Also my trees are not particularly old.. even the big one is less than 12 years from when it was airlayered.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Lots of vigor here. I deheaded the sacrifice this year when it started shading out trees on the bench.

I also uncovered the surface roots a bit; this will need some root work in the next couple years. I’ll skip the organic fert, since this looks like I used primarily turface.
I’m not sure if informal upright is in the cards, but there are some lower buds I could cut back to for movement.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

This one is an odd bird.. it is throwing roots into the turface above the two bar branches. I might be able to pump those up for a fat sumo shohin. Also some needle buds are pointing pretty straight up, so I may have a chance at the formal upright?

It was weed whacked which broke the pot, so I slipped it into another and covered with turface, but it isn’t turface all the way through.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Instead of the blow by blow here are a bunch more photos of before and after a:

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Only the big guys is left.